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View Diary: Reasoning for the Iraq War (36 comments)

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  •  Kerry wouldn't start it ... (none)
    The people would, you, I, other Kossites, the leaders in our country that have a backbone, Dean, Byrd, Kennedy, Zinni, Gore, the authorities of our country, diplomats, Wilson, Clarke, history professors, every rational honest person who has the understanding should add their voice to the chorus.  

    It is absolutely true, it is not like we are talking about a leap of logic.

    Let the chorus speak, after a while, Kerry could have an epiphany -

    Epiphany - A sudden manifestation of the essence or meaning of something.

    Then everyone could move forward in a broad front, the timid in Congress could join in, the punditry of the media could begin putting their toe in the water.

    However they get there, we will be the ones who respond.. never on the offensive.

    If we knock the fundamental support (valid war, valid goals, which gives their actions validity) out from under the neocons, it will be easier to criticize them.  If the war is illegitimate, then naturally the Iraqis will attack us, they have every reason to, maybe we should be taking steps to leave the area?

    All of the reasons stated above will still be valid, we just need to set the stage so they won't get marginalized or knocked down by the neocons so easily.

    I wrote earlier what Biden represents with his dancing.

    "Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." - Thomas Jefferson

    by Wally on Fri Apr 16, 2004 at 11:28:12 AM PDT

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    •  The only thing (none)
      that might awaken America is a single great loss of American life.  I am ocnvinced nothing else will move many.  I think we are about to wage offensive urban warfare, even greater than the past two week if not year and that more than 15 cities and towns will rise agaisnt us...what then.
      If that happens, with a great loss of American life (the opposition is organised and effective, rading carefully.. ) well then the blame may spread.  
      It may be a very tough and wierd election.  I think the so called heckler (a retired professor) of 2 days ago in a Kerry appearance in NY may be a tip...
      The game playing by the Pretzel and Blair with the UN numbs Kerry in some ways.  What to say anyway...

      You know what, in an election season, and I fully understand surrogates, if Kerry is the cypher he wishes to be, that Shrum and others make him be (there may be little else) in my view it may never coalesce.  He may very well go in, (I mean why not for gods sake) but it will be messy muffled and weak.
      I cannot think of a worse thing. (Well, yes, Bush but ... I mean for endurance of Democratic presidents getting elected and for starters a second term)

      •  Even with more loss of life ... (none)
        They will still fall back on those they perceive as "strong leaders", there is too much confusion, too much doubt, way too much fear.  The American people have been changed from brave individualist entrepreneurs into cowering messiah seekers, too busy or preoccupied to sort out all the conflicting information.

        We are being desensitized incrementally by the steady ratcheting up of the war and carnage.  The populace will sadly become more accepting of the slaughter, they already are.  The neocons imagine themselves as Patton-wannabes, resolute, fearless warriors.  They are getting impatient with all the squawking about "a few hundred" casualties when speaking of grand epochal conquests.

        They aren't going anywhere, the only power that can make them leave is the American people, we have to awaken the American people from their stupor.  

        "Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." - Thomas Jefferson

        by Wally on Fri Apr 16, 2004 at 12:16:45 PM PDT

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        •  I agree with all (none)
          you say... but by loss of life I mean Beirut numbers in a single go.  And then Reagan decamped to Granada and the Dems allowed the Repubs to steal national security and war cred.  Even now we don't know how to get it back even with Clarke handing it to us.
          I haven't a clue what to make of anything.  The American people sleep, either by choice, by personal comfort or by sheer exhaustion as they are disenfranchised and over worked.  But then the Democratic party sleeps.  Dolts.

          I deeeply value the "jersey girls", and damn are they screwed toghher right or not.. wowo.  I am impressed  BUT look at what they were... totoally outof the poltical awareness loop, even to knowing the houses od congress.  Now that is an America that feels invulnerable, not only externally but internally.  Over, that world is.  But aht insulation got us here.  Right now I odn't know where we are...

          I noticed that Juan Cole paraphrased what Bush as done as formal induction to the Likud Party with Sharon as his leader, I'd say thorw the Dems in there too.

          I don't know what to do.  But reading thru a loooong AP round up piece I see in the past few hours we have dropped a 2000 lb bomb on Fallujah and Kimmitt will hve his way with Najaf, I suspect.

          •  Remember the Alamo (none)
            They would spin larger loss of life on "our side" as motivation for more brutal oppression.  Case in point - 4 American (mercs) die in Fallujah, we do everything but nuke them, killing anything that moves, destroying major sections of a city.  That would be in the insane category.  What we do to a city if we lost 300 in one attack?

            Violence feeds these people, they relish it, they thrive on it.

            The Jersey girls are motivated by something the administration has a hard time controlling - truth and justice, and they have money enough to take away that leverage against them.

            Maybe congress could have a special ceremony where the "most dutiful" were awarded their Likud lapel pins.  We could have Sharon make a speech to both Houses, broadcast on TV, a "State of the World" speech.

            "Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." - Thomas Jefferson

            by Wally on Fri Apr 16, 2004 at 01:49:58 PM PDT

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            •  I really should stop (none)
              posting.  I consider us very far gone. Our ideology is corrupted, or we never would have goen to war. Much less elected the selected one. Simple as that.  
              It is fine to say most Americans would not like Imperialism if it ws explained, jsut as a genuine definition of Liberalism and it's ordinary,  natural political goals polls well...  But that means rolling the ocuntry up backwards and teachign differently for 100 years. Certainly for 50.

              There will always be "Jersey Girls" and I am thannkful for them, but it needs to be "before hand".  At least to houses of congress.  But they felt immune, is my guess. Corporate comfort, suburban life, medical insurance, etc etc. Surprise.  Knowing the houses of congress will matter.  Being inside the famous oceans that 'kept us safe' means not safe, no matter what flies in.
              But I grew up being taught, eye out for the enemy within, national interests will try to force your eye outward for enemies.

              I consider us far gone.  I am uncertain it can be caught back.  As the war worsens I expect deeper fissures in the party and in the nation, to be resolved in ways we may not be able to picture quite yet.  People like me who never left the party (where to go) are absolutely worn out and the result is to hear "traitor" in these theads.  I mean screw that. I think we are ripe for a demagogue. Our language is completely confused...will we notice again, sicne we barely do this time, the words of a demogogue...
              That really worries me, a worse one than ChimpBoy who at least can be made fun of.  Each time Blair comes tho many Bush haters calm to Blair's imperial tones.... I worry we are 4 years away from one, a more imperial and polished demogogue..

              I am listening to Kimmitt, film of tanks out side Kufa with birds singing...Sistani says it is "bad to worse".

              •  The Enemy Within (none)
                Yes, our ideology is corrupted, hi-jacked by those flag draped moral pygmies in the administration and their think-tanks, our "enemy within" as you say.  And Congress is shameful, many of them have stayed past their time.  We are fortunate our Bozo is much less capable than many of history's horrid leaders.

                We are both searching for an answer, trying to find a way to wake the American populace from its stupor.

                I was hoping attacking them on their overall framework would work, many Americans already know it is Imperialism, but few seem to speak of it.  If more began speaking of it, then possibly a momentum could build, it is true after all.  Some would need to have it explained of course, but the facts are on our side

                What do you mean by rolling the country up backwards and teaching different from the last 50 years?

                In the history of our nation's imperialism, Iraq is such a blatant example reaching a consensus should be easier, in addition it is happening now.  What would imperialists do differently?  I don't know how they could meaningfully refute that.  They can certainly no longer comeback with - "They would be more brutal in oppressing the people".

                "Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." - Thomas Jefferson

                by Wally on Fri Apr 16, 2004 at 03:56:55 PM PDT

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                •  Rolling back education.. (none)
                  making it more rigorous. Independent. Critical thinking, I don't even see much in this so called left blog. But except for isolated teachers who break thru, I think that day is over. Business and business needs intervened.  So very much is mechanised, almost Teutonic in a rigidity.  America is absorbed and imprisoned by image and lifestyle.  Lost.

                  Certainly this primary, viewed as close up as I chose to do this time, was beyond dispiriting.  People, supposedly educated and aware, and fruther happy to bash the media in rather rote fashion, in fact in very rote fashion... to be frank, were day after day taken in. Prattled all day long what the flabby left and center and right media dished.
                  I don't care they did not like my candidate, so many simply hated him as exhorted to do by the media.  Mob.  Well, whoops.  That is how demagogues are delivered.  The other way demagogues are delivered is by exhausting a nation, soemtimes by war (ours may be distant, but it may come home) or disenfranchisement... and poverty.  I'd say trifecta.  I am sure it is one reason the Dems are slavering over this election.  They may slaver to loss.

                  This war that both sides wanted?  Poorer education, further declining infrastructure, no national health system of any kind, etc... that is what is coming.  And i htink I read Kerry just sorta promised soem sort of newly free (or maybe not so free) higher ed.  Promise them anything...

                  The week the Kerry cmpaign blithered on about McCain, btw, it simply blew me away they did htat... is the very week the NYT called for release of his medical records.  I pay very close attention to that. No Duke's classification was ever rleased on the illness.  We have the word of his wife it was early.  Ok whatever. I have no clue what I am being asked to endorse.  O yes, the party... I think we are imperially impaled and from wihtin.  Yes, BTB, better than Bush but so very worrisome.

                  If we had learned from Vietnam, we would not have done this.  I maintain we will ocntinue til fully bankrupt, (even) under Kerry we will stay for decades.  If not bankrupt we will do it again.  How can we fight being imperialistic when we are, and fully engaged in a war of empire?  Now many may not have even noticed Bosnia and Kosovo, many Dems scarcely noticed, amazingly.  And you see how easily one candidate sold himself to Dems based on war.. and the cover story for war... but Iraq will be hard to miss and a many decades long occupation.

                  It may take 50 years but I htink the jig is up.

                  •  Exhausted by war (none)
                    This blog seems moderate to me too, I just throw that "left" labeling in the bucket of conventional thinking that has moved the measuring points so far to the right, many have accepted the new points.  Whatever.

                    Business has intervened, now they have people begging for jobs, food, shelter, health care while we spend $200 billion+ in a war on the other side of the world.  The entertainment industry has us caring more about "our teams", "our sitcom", "our star" than we do about basic human rights being obliterated in our name by our children.  

                    The war coverage seems more like ESPN than the atrocious horror it is.  The battles are described as the Dallas Cowboys taking on the El Salvadorian High School pick up team, "Al, why do they keep getting on the field?  I don't know Tony, with the score at 87-2 you'd think they would throw in the towel".  Maybe because it's their field?

                    The primary, the cream of the Democratic electorate, ideal conditions, the most informed electorate ever, sage punditry from both ends of the spectrum (RNC & DLC), issues oriented, highest turnout, head em up, move em out.

                    Very rote indeed.  Our system may not be strong enough to take them on, but we can sure do a number on you.  Those with hope need not apply, we know best, you'll understand later.  And that other guy, did you hear he ....?  It was disquieting to see what little resistance the rethugs put up once K was front runner.

                    Exhausted by war - there's a chilling thought, it certainly has been used before by less capable manipulators than the masters of message in charge today.  Maybe we can skate over the line, other side defaulting, buried in the mountain of ills they created.  Acquiescence isn't a word I trust with them.

                    When have been reduced to saying BTB is our highest aspiration, our most fervent hope.  On top of that they want us to split the ticket.  BTB covers a lot of territory.  

                    Bankrupt - by some definitions we are there, going deeper faster than can be comprehended.  Have the World Bank apply the rules on us they do on others.  Have China see it within their interest to tweak us, just a little.  Of course, if they give us enough rope ...

                    Fighting Imperialism?  The beginning would be speaking its name aloud, a hurdle for our society I confess.  We still have that much integrity somewhere don't we, dormant, ready for awakening?

                    "Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." - Thomas Jefferson

                    by Wally on Fri Apr 16, 2004 at 07:20:55 PM PDT

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                    •  I don't think we can say it. (none)
                      We can't say war profiteer, even.  But we take down Martha, about whom I care nothing. But you know a Big Dem...

                      Oh that split ticket thing was quite the diversion.  When I fully understood the K camp was pushing it, well, it said a lot to me.

                      As for moderate, sure I agree, no question. Poor wilfred did a diary on how much more moderate can this blog get and was villified for it.  I just sent him my thoughts by e-mail, why bother here.  I don't ecpect peopel to share my politics but I do ask that educated semi-leisure classes (tho there is some to much job and income stress on this blog as well...) be more independent of thought.  Less dictated to... it is the only way to be safe.  And I htink it is fully gone in America.

                      I maintain in Europe, old Europe as example, one may have a genuine conversation about Algeria.  It is understood, understood, what went wrong and that it must not be done again.  Same with Vietnam. In France.... not possible to have that conversation in America, tho.  About the same transgressions.

                      But I also maintain that for all the stresses of life in Europe, and they are there, to be certain... the trade off is (and everyone knows this) comfort and stability at home.  Good wages, comfort (generally speaking), education, in several countries free thru the equivalent of college also emphasis on quality technical schools, and as we endlessly wait: health care. So many things we do not have and will not have.

                      But then they are spared what we DO have:
                      NO religious fundie right:  BIG difference.  
                      NO sell out to Israel:  BIG difference.
                      NO Rupert Murdoch, for whom the way was cleared by Cuomo + others and factions of Likud in America.  sigh.  BIG difference.
                      No I think we are lost.

                      Also lastly I have searched not finding a news article, but I heard a snippet, literally a snippet, that Tony Cordesman has said Bush must soon ask for 70B.  That might be the tipping point rather than massive death.  Wouldn't that be revealing?  
                      I imagine that tape of young Maupin was delivered to the Embassy in Qatar as a special treat following Bush Baby and Sharon appearance.  Quite the stunner all around.  After the horrific death of the young Italian security gueard, Berlusconi will be quiet for a while, I suspect.

                      As for K and the party.  Good luck and god speed to him.  I have literally the worst opinion of the deal I am presented with.  Talk about checking the teeth before buying, too late.  Nobody watching politics closely for a long time doubts what came down.

      •  Kerry the Cypher? (none)
        By whatever means necessary I hope that he gets in (are you reading this Torch?).

        I also have the hope that if he had the top job we might see him be willing to show and develop more of his better qualities, the ones he displayed in flashes throughout his life.  God knows we need him to.

        If not, a primary challenge from some plain talking type would be fun to work on.

        "Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." - Thomas Jefferson

        by Wally on Fri Apr 16, 2004 at 01:27:31 PM PDT

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