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  •  on Lincoln... that link is bogus. (5+ / 0-)

    I'd suggest, if you are interested in that topic, you research those quotes a bit more thoroughly (and definitely before you send that link around again). Lincoln was definitely more progressive in his attitude than those edited quotes convey, and certainly much more than many others were at the time.

    One example:

    "Such separation ... must be effected by colonization ... to transfer the African to his native clime, and we shall find a way to do it, however great the task may be." - From a speech delivered in Springfield, IL; 26 June, 1857

    This makes it sound like Lincoln was advocating this. It is taken from this speech, and the full quote is as follows:

    Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization; and no political party, as such, is now doing anything directly for colonization. Party operations at present only favor or retard colonization incidentally. The enterprise is a difficult one; but "when there is a will there is a way;" and what colonization needs most is a hearty will. Will springs from the two elements of moral sense and self-interest. Let us be brought to believe it is morally right, and, at the same time, favorable to, or, at least, not against, our interest, to transfer the African to his native clime, and we shall find a way to do it, however great the task may be.

    See what they did? They stripped out all the qualifiers, and thus totally changed the meaning of the quote. Actually, read the whole speech, it's a good one, and you'll get a much better sense of who Lincoln was, and how clever he was. I'm certainly no expert at the topic, but I do enjoy his wit, his legacy, and his actual quotes.

    •  True, quite true... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pb

      it was the result of a google, looking for the following quote in particular:

      "If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves, I would do it." - To Horace Greeley

      I'll certainly have to be a bit more vigilant. I was hesitant to use that site initially, and didn't dig too deep.

      Any insights into the quote above? One of the things I love about this site is opportunities to be enlightened, just such as this. :)

      Knowledge brings fear... understanding, brings courage... wisdom bring peace.

      by Erevann on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 02:25:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  not really... (4+ / 0-)

        Like I said, I'm no expert; my reading of that quote is that Lincoln was taking a tone of offering some friendly advice throughout, as in, if you really want get this done (separation), then first there must be support for it, there must be a will to do it, and for that to happen, you must first explain why your position is the correct one, in our national interest, and if you can do that, then we will do it. That is, if you can get America to agree as a nation to do something, then America will find a way to do it, but first you must convince us!

        Also note earlier where Lincoln is talking about the Judge's desire to discourage 'mulattoes' and racial mixing--and by using statistics, logic, and reason, Lincoln cleverly manages to turn that position into an argument against slavery!

        But Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: agreed for once-a thousand times agreed. There are white men enough to marry all the white women, and black men enough to marry all the black women; and so let them be married. On this point we fully agree with the Judge; and when he shall show that his policy is better adapted to prevent amalgamation than ours we shall drop ours, and adopt his. Let us see. In 1850 there were in the United States, 405,751, mulattoes. Very few of these are the offspring of whites and free blacks; nearly all have sprung from black slaves and white masters. A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation but as all immediate separation is impossible the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas. That is at least one self-evident truth. A few free colored persons may get into the free States, in any event; but their number is too insignificant to amount to much in the way of mixing blood. In 1850 there were in the free states, 56,649 mulattoes; but for the most part they were not born there-they came from the slave States, ready made up. In the same year the slave States had 348,874 mulattoes all of home production. The proportion of free mulattoes to free blacks-the only colored classes in the free states-is much greater in the slave than in the free states. It is worthy of note too, that among the free states those which make the colored man the nearest to equal the white, have, proportionally the fewest mulattoes the least of amalgamation. In New Hampshire, the State which goes farthest towards equality between the races, there are just 184 Mulattoes while there are in Virginia-how many do you think? 79,775, being 23,126 more than in all the free States together.

        These statistics show that slavery is the greatest source of amalgamation; and next to it, not the elevation, but the degeneration of the free blacks. Yet Judge Douglas dreads the slightest restraints on the spread of slavery, and the slightest human recognition of the negro, as tending horribly to amalgamation.

        And then, even more powerfully:

        This very Dred Scott case affords a strong test as to which party most favors amalgamation, the Republicans or the dear union-saving Democracy. Dred Scott, his wife and two daughters were all involved in the suit. We desired the court to have held that they were citizens so far at least as to entitle them to a hearing as to whether they were free or not; and then, also, that they were in fact and in law really free. Could we have had our way, the chances of these black girls, ever mixing their blood with that of white people, would have been diminished at least to the extent that it could not have been without their consent. But Judge Douglas is delighted to have them decided to be slaves, and not human enough to have a hearing, even if they were free, and thus left subject to the forced concubinage of their masters, and liable to become the mothers of mulattoes in spite of themselves-the very state of case that produces nine tenths of all the mulattoes-all the mixing of blood in the nation.

        I'd welcome another Lincoln.

        •  Well there ya go, I'm convinced (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pb

          Thanks for the education! Might not be an expert, but you're ahead of me when it comes to Lincoln, obviously.

          I do believe I'd welcome another Lincoln as well, though one a bit more in touch with the present. :)

          Thanks again!!

          Knowledge brings fear... understanding, brings courage... wisdom bring peace.

          by Erevann on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 03:20:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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