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View Diary: Pro-war people were wrong (309 comments)

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  •  What facts were published before the war? (none)
    Even at the height of war fever, Bush's lies were being exposed almost immediately after uttered (nothing that has subsequently "emerged" should be a surprise to anyone paying attention).

    Seymour Hersh wrote about the falsified Niger documents in the New Yorker on March 24th, 2003: WHO LIED TO WHOM? Why did the Administration endorse a forgery about Iraq's nuclear program?

    What other news stories are in the public record before onset of the war? This goes straight to the heart of what Bush must have -- or should have -- known prior to onset of the war. --M

    "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."  -- Winston Churchill

    by maynard on Sun Apr 18, 2004 at 12:23:12 PM PDT

    •  The claim that Iraq provided the anthrax (none)
      was debunked.

      As were the claims of a 911 connection through Prague.

      •  Context and re: Atta (none)
        Thanks Sterling,

        Iraqi Anthrax involvement:

        Here's a CNN article from October 15, 2001 on the subject: Ex-U.N. weapons inspector: Possible Iraq-anthrax link, which consists entirely of speculation that Iraq had a link to the Anthrax attacks due to the claim that they had the capability to create the bio-weapon. A quick google search didn't find any specific claims that Iraq did provide anthrax for the attack (though I don't have access to lexus/nexus to really check up on that). NewScientist reported in May 2, 2002, that Anthrax attack bug "identical" to army strain. I've seen little on the story since that date; it appears to have died down the American short-term memory hole.

        Mohamed Atta meets Iraqi intelligence officers in Prague:

        Slate nearly debunked this as early as Sept 3 2002, in: Did Mohamed Atta Meet an Iraqi Spy in Prague? which consists of a quick historical take on the claims and counterclaims over this issue since its inception. However, as late as Nov 19th 2003, Slate was still asserting "some evidence" for an Iraqi / al Queda connection through the Atta / Prague connection: Prague Revisited: The evidence of an Iraq/al-Qaida connection hasn't gone away. I've read differing stories on this. I remember a 60 Minutes report which debunked it, but I've also read reports which imply it's still being considered real. I don't think this was thoroughly debunked before the onset of war.

        Cheers,
        --Maynard

        "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."  -- Winston Churchill

        by maynard on Sun Apr 18, 2004 at 01:22:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Tenet's 2002 testimony (none)
          said that there was no confirmation on the Prague meeting.
          •  Sterling, this is not fair... (none)
            ...You're posting one-liner claims without offering citations. The first link a quick google search offers up for Tenet's unclassified testimony before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence on June 18th, 2002 reads:

            • "Atta (#1) traveled by bus to Prague, entering the city on 2 June 2000, and flew to Newark the next day."

            • "As you may have read in the press, Atta (#1) allegedly traveled outside the US in early April 2001 to meet with an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague, we are still working to confirm or deny this allegation."
            In the "Conclusions" section he doesn't even address Iraq, nor does he make any specific claims for or against an Atta/al Queda --> Iraq connection. He simply says 'we don't know' prior to that. Are we speaking about the same committe hearing?

            Truthout claims the issue has been thoroughly debunked, though does note that Cheney continues assert a connection. At this point I would say - beats me! I dunno what to think. Given this administration's willingness to misrepresent, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Truthout. But I've yet to see anything which shows the debunking having happened before onset of the war with Iraq.

            Cheers,
            --Maynard

            "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."  -- Winston Churchill

            by maynard on Sun Apr 18, 2004 at 02:04:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  And the constant claims that (none)
        Saddam had refused the UN inspectors access. As well as the claim (refuted since 1998, but continually reasserted) that Saddam had kicked the inspectors out of Iraq.

        "By focusing fear and hatred on the Tutsi, the organizers hoped to forge solidarity among Hutu." -- Human Rights Watch

        by a gilas girl on Sun Apr 18, 2004 at 04:20:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Those claims... (none)
          'a gilas girl' wrote:
          Saddam had refused the UN inspectors access.

          I don't know that they've ever made this claim. I think Bush had a gaffe where he mistakenly stated that Iraq hadn't allowed UN inspectors in, but White House staff later corrected him. Or are you talking about the lack of "unfettered access" claim?

          'a gilas girl' wrote:
          As well as the claim (refuted since 1998, but continually reasserted) that Saddam had kicked the inspectors out of Iraq.

          That is eggregious. As this December 16, 1998, report on Operation Desert Fox shows, UNSCOM staff were withdrawn by the order of Richard Butler, head weapons inspector at the time.

          Butler late Tuesday ordered UNSCOM staff out of Baghdad.  The entire staff was evacuated before dawn on Wednesday.

          "I regret that I had to report the facts yesterday, which is that (unfettered access) had not been given, and we can't adequately do our jobs under these circumstances," Butler told reporters at the United Nations on Wednesday.

          "It made logical sense therefore to pull our people out, and we'll see where this goes in the future," he added.

          Other reports have shown that the UN removed inspectors at the request of the Clinton administration for the inspectors' safety. However, it's true that Saddam refused to allow inspectors to return afterward. So, in that sense one can say that he 'kicked them out', though the logic is pretty disingenuous. --M

          "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."  -- Winston Churchill

          by maynard on Sun Apr 18, 2004 at 05:45:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Gaffe? Nope -- either lie or delusion (none)
            'a gilas girl' wrote: Saddam had refused the UN inspectors access.

            I don't know that they've ever made this claim. I think Bush had a gaffe where he mistakenly stated that Iraq hadn't allowed UN inspectors in, but White House staff later corrected him. Or are you talking about the lack of "unfettered access" claim?

            Bush made the claim that "Saddam wouldn't let the inspectors in, so we had to go to war" at least twice. After being flabbergasted at the first time he made this bald-faced lie, I heard him issue it yet again a couple months later. He may actually believe it as the truth conflicts with his rationale for war.

            As the saying goes: "The truth is not in him."

            "Those who betray the trust...are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors." - George HW Bush

            by DavidW in SF on Sun Apr 18, 2004 at 06:47:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Fair point (none)
              Slate's Timothy Noah Seems to agree. Well, at least for one of those two statements Bush appears to have uttered. I've seen a reference to Bush's stating that a second time but I can't find a link right now. As to whether he's crazy, stupid, or a fox playing us all like a violin - who knows? But if he is a fox, well that stradivarius is gonna get clawed to shit.... --M

              "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."  -- Winston Churchill

              by maynard on Sun Apr 18, 2004 at 07:28:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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