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View Diary: Pro-war people were wrong (309 comments)

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  •  Fait Accompli (3.69)
    With all due respect Atrios there was no way this war was to be avoided.  The moment Bush was selected by SCOTUS as the head of the coup the invasion and occupation of Iraq was fait accompli.

    The reality is, and here I put on my worn out hat of prognostication, that the moment Bush pulled the trigger, so to speak, on invading Iraq was the moment that the United States was defeated by the Iraqis.  Matt Yglesias and David Brooks may feel the need to back down from their previously lofty perches but all of this has been obvious from day one.  

    Rumsfeld is a complete moron. You simply do not invade a country with precious little logistical support.  His decision to ignore the advice of working professionals would have gotten him fired in any properly governed organization.   Whatever Dick Cheney has been doing he has certainly not been doing the job of Vice President these past 3+ years.  His inability to do his job, his entirely off putting & inept attempts at doing the jobs of others, and his completely bewildering attitude issues would have gotten him fired immediately from any properly governed organization. And whatever personal & voluminous personal issues George Bush clearly has with his father, his penis, and the good book quite clearly make him out to be a twit who couldn't govern his way out of a paper bag much less govern a super power during a war.   Any competent Board would have had his ass out the door with a golden parachute as soon as he opened his small and sniggering mouth in front of the shareholders.  

    This is all going to get much much worse.  Those such as Matt Yglesias, who should have known better than to get in bed with a morally insubstantial born again Christian like George Bush, will have to pay the price for all of this with their conscious while those in field pay for it with their lives.  But Atrios don't get too full of yourself.  As soon as SCOTUS broke the Constitution all of this could have been predicted by a glass eyed hobo watching Mel Gibson auto-fellate himself on the wide screen at the foot of Golgotha while Judge Moore whispers sweet hobo nothings into his ear.

    •  there are ways..... (none)
      there was no way this war was to be avoided.

      i must respectfully disagree.   here's an example... if we had enough people willing to act (say at least 25% of the workforce) along with enough people in agreement, we could have prevented the war with a nation-wide strike.

      of course, we couldn't have convinced bush to change his mind.  the trick is to convince the people that can influence bush - the buisness leaders.

      there are many, many other ways to nonviolently influence governments - even dictatorships.  please read gene sharp's "the politics of nonviolent action" for the theory and practice of nonviolent action.  who knows, the knowledge may come in handy.

      •  I've read it (none)
        However I think the possibility that the American people would have stood up against this thing in the numbers and in the instutions which count the most to stop this action was negligible.  
        •  we've done it before.... (none)
          the vietnam war
          the civil rights movement
          and many more...

          indeed it this the ONLY way major social change has occured in this country.

          people stand up when they are convinced to reconsider their position... more voices in the so-called "moderate center" would have helped.

          and we're going to need those voices now, to force the pull out from iraq.

          •  I agree (none)
            Concerning the futre I agree with you.  However I was very specifically referring to the situation before the invasion of Iraq.  People do not make such protests unless they feel personally involved and/or personally at stake.  That simply wasn't the case before the invasion.

            The examples you give do not speak in any way towards the situation I am referring to.

    •  Not Alone (4.00)
      He couldn't have done it alone.  Not without help from Democrats in Congress.  Not with a solid wall of public opinion against him.

      Bush was able to drag the American army into his private war because a significant part of America let him.

      This is NOT America's war.  It belongs to Bush and the DeLay wing of the Republican party.  But America is getting all the blame.  Because we didn't solidly oppose Bush.  Let's not make that mistake again.

      Defend America against its enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC.  Bush is the single greatest threat to America that we have now.

      •  It wasn't America's war (none)
        but it is now. The guy that walks into DC with a suitcase nuke isn't going to care that there was an anti-war element in America.

        Other than that I agree entirely with your post.

        •  You're right about that... (none)
          From WaPo:

          "When the fighting is over in Fallujah, I will sell everything I have, even my home," said a resistance fighter who gave his name as Abu Taif Mashhadani. He wept as he recalled his 8-year-old daughter, who he said was killed by a U.S. sniper in Fallujah a week ago. "I will send my brothers north to kill the Kurds, and I will go to America and target the civilians. Only the civilians. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. And the one who started it will be the one to be blamed."
    •  Heh there (4.00)
      Great blog you run.

      There was a time when this war cold be avoided, and that time was in 2001. It was in 2001 that the Democrats made the decision to "let Bush have his way", and then when things went wrong, reclaim power.

      It was a fatal miscalculation.

    •  "Victory has a thousand fathers... (4.00)
      ... but defeat is an orphan." JFK

      Saying "Nothing could be done" is rolling over and declaring defeat. What happened was that nobody did what needed to be done, and that what was done wasn't enough.

      Pretending the war couldn't be stopped because one very stupid man wanted it to happen just absolves all the other idiots and cowards of blame.

      I have evidently Energised the Discourse and Made Politics Real Again. -Spider Jerusalem

      by agrajag on Sun Apr 18, 2004 at 02:26:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not at all (none)
        I am not at all rolling over and declaring defeat.  In fact just the opposite.  I would posit that there is no way in hell George Bush can, in a fair election, win in November.  In fact I would posit that he will lose by a landslide and it will be a direct result of his decision to invade Iraq.

        My point is that when the coup occured it set in motion a series of events which were unavoidable.  One of those events was the invasion of Iraq.  Your points depend in no small part on there being the rule of law.  We simply do not have the rule of law since the coup took place.  Until we get a legitimate goverment in place we will not have the rule of law.  

        I would posit that those who accept the coup are the ones who are defeatist.  Everything works in cycles.  We have yet to get to the point in this cycle where the events of the 2000 election begin to be questioned.  Watch for that.  When it begins you will find that everything you think you know is not true.  

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