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View Diary: Pro-war people were wrong (309 comments)

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  •  sorry, don't think this was a great post (none)
    "Shit, all it took was a cursory glance at the history of Iraq and a dash of good ol' fashioned (and apparently out of fashion) common sense to see the various ways things could go wrong."

    First of all, using 'shit' in a front page posting is bad writing.  I can understand a kind of informal style, but since this is a serious topic, I would have prefered a more well reasoned argument.

    Second, for me it was not at all common sense that things would have turned out like they did.  It was not obvious, or likely to me that we should have ended up in the condition we are in.  Of course, with war, anything is possible, and that was my reason that we should not have invaded without better proof.  This argument comes off as a little to cheeky for me, it is a little to easy to look back and say, "of course!!! I told you so!", but really, how many liberals were arguing that we should go in because we might lose? very very few.

    To me it is the kind of argument that makes the left look unserious, and this turns off many.  It is more reasonable, I think, to say that we have a problem now, those who decieved us are primarily responsible and should be removed from power (Bush), but that we still have to find solutions to the mess in the interest of world peace.

    •  I think you are wrong... (4.00)
      it was obvious what would happen if you bothered to actually find out the truth.  Perhaps some of our well meaning fellow citizens who were content to get their news from the networks or the cable outfits could have missed it. But if you were serious about it and looked at it objectively it  was clear that the majority of the people in Iraq did not want us to invade.  That was really all that was necessary to know.  Because it was always clear that if they didn't want us to be there, we couldn't.  It was also abundantly clear that this administration had ulterior motives, reasons that they weren't being honest about, as to why they felt compelled to do this.  I think it was clear unless you were either being fooled or actively fooling yourself.
      •  then show some references to back up your argument (none)
        I'll ask again (do you have links?) how many liberals were arguing that we would lose the war, or suffer severe casualties as we are now? the arguments I heard, were that many Iraqis would die, and some Americans, but this is different.
        •  Well that is precisely the argument.. (none)
          My argument was based on the fact that I actually know people who are from and have families in Iraq.  And it was clear from them as well as a common sense reading of recent history that the people of Iraq would not look upon us as liberators.

          And that was all you needed to know about our chances of prevailing.  Without the overwhelming support of the indiginous population there was never any chance that we could prevail.  The arguement I made at the time was that the insurgency would always be able to force you to chose between defeat and genocide.  This is really the lesson that we should have learned in Vietnam.  That when our forces have no way telling friend from foe, we cannot win unless we are willing to kill them all.

          This in essense was the arguement that those of us who were using the Vietnam analogy were making.  But of course we were shouted down.  Iraq is not Vietnam... As if the geography of the situation was in doubt.  No.  Rather we were making the point that the reason we lost in Vietnam was because we found ourselves on the wrong side of a nationalist struggle.  We predicted that we would find ourselves in the same position in Iraq and this is exactly what is happening.

        •  Wrong question, perhpas. (none)
          I'll ask again (do you have links?) how many liberals were arguing that we would lose the war, or suffer severe casualties as we are now?

          I don't think it'd be worth your time to ask how many liberals were arguing that we would lose outright. I think you'd be better served asking how many liberals were arguing that the war was unwinnable, which is a very different thing.

          I think you'll find a few, although I have to admit that as far as documentation goes, I'm starting from scratch. Let's look.

        •  I'm sure that Steve (none)
          Gilliard has his stuff archived is you feel the need.
    •  Disagree (none)
      I disagree.  As one of those who believed the invasion of Iraq was wrong and that it would bring nothing but trouble, I'd ask those who didn't anticipate this mess to try to imagine what it's been like for the rest of us to watch what has been called a disaster happen before our very eyes (and to be called "chicken littles"!).  

      Also -- there may have been almost as many conservatives as liberals who watched in agony from early 2002 on as a poor case was made for and invasion. I know quite a few.  So please don't respond as though we're just a bunch of caricature liberals who relish saying, "Neener neener!  We were right all along!"  If you know what it's like to watch a disaster happen in slow motion, you'll know that triumphalism isn't a common response.

      •  I am utterly (none)
        disinterested in triumphalism, but I want "traitor" remembered.  For one it is still in use.  Still in teh back pocket ready to be whipped out.

        Terrorist too btw.  Don't forget Perle calling Hersh "nearly a terrorist" and Ron Paige over the NEA.
        No the right has big problems.  And the confused left allowed that group to carry the day with their arguments.  A big problem.
        Right along with the 20 year nervousness in the Democratic party over "liberal".  I thought we made a bit of headway on that one, but no.

    •  Fuck (none)
      If words like "shit" bother you, I submit you head elsewhere. I will use profanity when I feel warranted. Believe it or not, I use such words in my daily discourse, and won't shy away from using them here.

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