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View Diary: Did Hugo Chavez Speak Truth Or Lies? (119 comments)

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  •  Right? Wrong? Chavez is a dick (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    redcardphreek

    If Chavez said "Water is wet" I'd say "Chavez is a dick"

    •  and that would be for what reason? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SecondComing, bobdevo

      apart from the furriner with funny looks argument

      If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

      by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:44:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  How about his appalling record (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        michael1104, redcardphreek

        of clamping down on his opponents inside Venezuela? How about his human rights record?

        Chuck Schumer is not the enemy

        by AnnArborBlue on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:45:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  the only opponents being clamped down on (8+ / 0-)

          are the kleptocrats that used to run the country that tried to overthrow his legitimate election in a violent coup

          in such circumstances one has to be a little careful

          you kind of earn restrictions when you try to use violent coups to overthrow elected leaders because they threaten your financial interests

          If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

          by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:49:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well ... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            michael1104

            let's not idealize Chavez, even if we can agree with his analysis of right-wing American imperialism. I think he's a left-wing authoritarian (some call him a crypto-dictator).

            •  crypto means nothing (5+ / 0-)

              he either is or isn't - and until he ignores an election that throws him out of power he isn't

              idealizing leaders is fruitless

              but knee jerk attacks are pointless

              and not recognizing a better situation is stupid too - the bulk of Venezuelan people are better off than they were under the previous kleptocratic regime

              If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

              by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:58:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •   I hope you don't think (0+ / 0-)

                I was launching a knee-jerk attack. I also hope you're not calling me stupid.

                I think that Chavez' pouring money into the barrios for health and education and infrastructure has been great.

                I do worry about his clampdown on media.

                Also, Chavez has had to borrow heavily from Venezuelan banks to finance these much needed programs--depositing oil profits at about 5% and then borrowing at 14%--not a formula for sustainability!

                I think it's too early to tell how authoritarian he will become, or if his economic policies are a case of present gain (partly to consolidate his popularity) at the expense of a future economic collapse.

                P.S. I think one can be a dictator prior to ignoring an election.

                •  clearly not stupid (0+ / 0-)

                  as you seem to recognize the situation is better - if you didn't - yeah that'd be pretty stupid

                  as to the macro arguments... well let's see how he fares compared to the other Latin American economies that follow more approved US led policies

                  If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

                  by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 07:59:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Unlike Bush, Chavez was elected fairly, majority (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tankej, SecondComing, eaglecries

              Unlike Bush, Chavez clearly wields the authority that was granted to him by a majority of the Venezuelan people.  That's not hero-worship.  It's the simple truth, and the truth is important, particularly when it comes to whether presidents have been fairly elected to exercise the power that they hold.  

            •  Oh, we can't have any left-wing around here! (0+ / 0-)

              Then the LORD said unto me: 'Out of the north the evil shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land.

              by curmudgiana on Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 07:26:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  is it okay (0+ / 0-)

            when Chavez attempts coups though? I guess that's acceptable because in 1992...it was Chavez, and Chavez can do no wrong! Right?

            "People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. They don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible." --J.R.

            by michael1104 on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:56:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  straw man argument (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tankej

              leaders do wrong often - means nothing

              If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

              by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:59:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  please (0+ / 0-)

                have you been hiding under a rock? All you have to do is read every single diary on him where you will find Chavez messiahnism, where people think he is a hero and does no wrong.

                "People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. They don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible." --J.R.

                by michael1104 on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 02:01:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  yes - but your comment was in response to mine (0+ / 0-)

                  and i make no claims as such

                  are some people under-critical of fellow travelers - probably... but many on here are more critical of fellow travelers - so there is a nice balance...

                  at the end of the day if you are one of the millions of desperately poor venezuelans you are probably a bit better off than under the prior regimes or the current alternatives

                  If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

                  by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 07:58:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  ah - so the appropriate response to that is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tankej

          regardless of what he says to call him a Dick... got it

          that is probably the missing piece in international relations - once we get that out there in the open we can finally begin to make the world a better place

          If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

          by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:57:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I never called him a dick (0+ / 0-)

            I'll gladly call him a thug though.

            Chuck Schumer is not the enemy

            by AnnArborBlue on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:59:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  well you responded to my question (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tankej, callmecassandra

              of the prior commenter "why would you call him a dick right or wrong" by saying because he has an appalling record

              thug is also not helpful

              one thing that always fails to come into these debates like the Castro is fundamentally a bad man debates is the simple fact that those they replaced were often far worse... and that improvement of a political nature is an incremental process not a leap to perfection - it is utopians that try to make that leap that you REALLY have to watch out for

              If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

              by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 02:03:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  yeah let us worry (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          curmudgiana

          about Chavez's human rights record. Who does he think he is to criticize holy George.

        •  Rightwing propaganda! (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tankej, eaglecries, peter fredson

          If you were going to say the things that Chavez says about Bush, you too would clamp down on the armed George Wills of your nation, lest they successfully aid a coup that Bush is only to anxious to foment.

          Who is clamping down more on dissent right now?  Isn't it Mr. GWB "I can tap the phones of anyone at anytime", imprison them without trial and torture them?  

          What is the greater insult?  That Bush tapped the phones of world UN leaders in the run-up to Iraq or that Chavez calls Bush a "devil"?

          NO ONE has ever accused Chavez of practicing the kind of torture that GWB says is absolutely necessary.

          This isn't about comparing their leader and "ours", but at least Chavez was elected by Venezuelans with world supervision of the elections, unlike Bush who cheated both times (Florida and Ohio).

          •  I can honestly say that I don't know enough (0+ / 0-)

            about Hugo Chavez or Venezuelan politics to form any opinion other than "the enemy of my enemy" is my ally for the time being. And George W. Bush is my White Whale.

            This world needs a bigger, drier pretzel -8.88 -5.08

            by SecondComing on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 03:05:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I might agree with Mark Fuhrman or OJ Simpson (0+ / 0-)

        But I don't care to have my name associated with either one of them

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