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View Diary: Supervixens #15: "Killer Chicks" (56 comments)

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  •  Have you noticed (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    monkeybiz, hrh, blueyedace2, aphra behn

    how the military has classified women in 'support' roles, pretending it isn't combat, to keep within the law?

    •  Yes, I have (4+ / 0-)

      Gotta wonder if it's a move, probably drivenby the cheap bastards int he Bush adminsitration, to keep them from receiving combat pay--at one point he wanted to do away with it compeltely or reduce it by a large percentage.  

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 04:36:16 PM PDT

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    •  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these days (6+ / 0-)

      women are only banned from infantry and armored units.  And we can thank previous generations of servicewomen for paving the way--by proving what we're capable of.  

      ...a man must use what power he has.--Ovid

      by Ice Blue on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 04:54:04 PM PDT

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      •  also submarines n/t (3+ / 0-)

        "This is a Revolution, dammit. We're going to have to offend SOMEbody!"--John Adams, *1776*

        by aphra behn on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 04:57:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  AndTHAT does have a rational reason-- (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hrh, blueyedace2, Ice Blue, aphra behn

          it was relatively easy to dub certain berthing areas all-female--but subs are so crowded,a nd submariners (I dated one so I got lots of info) often share a rack (bunbk) in shifts--12 on, 12 off.   It owuld be difficult to retool to put women onboard for that reason--if the women were gonna have any privacy at all.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 04:59:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  although the Aussies.. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ice Blue, SBE

            the Canadians and the Norwegians have figured out how to make it work. Just sayin'....

            "This is a Revolution, dammit. We're going to have to offend SOMEbody!"--John Adams, *1776*

            by aphra behn on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 05:12:58 PM PDT

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            •  It's still difficult. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ice Blue, aphra behn

              I can actually grasp that one. I wonder if they rotate berthing racks the way we do?  THAT makes a diff. Norway is also a MUCH sexually freer society than AMerica. Can you imagine some cosnervative CHristian  23 year old having to undress in front of guyys she works with???????

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 05:39:40 PM PDT

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              •  don't get me wrong, i hear ya, but... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hrh, SBE

                I definitely see what you are saying. It would be tough--no aruments here. My quibble is that these kind of cultural issues have all too often been held up as "impassable" barriers to women and/or minorities.

                I mean, when Truman racially integrated the forces, most white Americans were not at all used to being integrated with black Americans---for white Southerners it was positively indecent. And these arguements were used against WACs and WAVES working with men in the 1940s--at the time it made male personnel (and some of the women) just as uncomfortable to, say, be alone together in an office as it might make men/women to share shower facilities today.

                So, if we really wanted to do so, it would be overcome-able.  Most of the women who would be tough enough to make it in the Sub Nuke designator  would (I suspect) be tough enough to put up with the crap that went along with it. It would be HELL for those first women--I don't want to minimize that. But if we committed to it, we could do it.
                I mean, Canada, Australia, and (I believe) Spain...we could figure it out if we really, really, wanted to.

                "This is a Revolution, dammit. We're going to have to offend SOMEbody!"--John Adams, *1776*

                by aphra behn on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 06:14:16 PM PDT

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                •  Oh no doubt (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  hrh, SBE

                  they could get around it if they wanted to. One reason they gave for keeping women off carriers before they allowed it, along with "they're considered at war whenever they sail", was the issue of pregnancy--saly some women HAVE gotten pregnant while on a cruise, where celibacy is SUPPOSED to be the rule for everyone (which we all know is not the reality; my husband's old P3 Squadron HATED him because eh wasn't screwing around with the nubile females like they were---guess it made them feel guilty).

                  The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                  by irishwitch on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 06:49:06 PM PDT

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          •  "Hot bunks." I saw an episode of Nova (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            aphra behn

            on which cameras were allowed on one of our nuclear subs, and the crewmen said the Navy doesn't make them do that anymore.  But subs are still awfully cramped.

            ...a man must use what power he has.--Ovid

            by Ice Blue on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 06:05:00 PM PDT

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      •  Combat Arms. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ice Blue, Chincoteague, aphra behn

        The term you're looking for is Combat Arms. And it's not so much that they're banned from serving in those type of units as it is that they're banned from training in those specialties. So while a woman could never be in the Infantry, she could be part of an Infantry Division. As a medic, for example.

        Combat Engineers, Infantry, Tankers... there are dozens of Combat Arms specialties. But the truth is, most of the Army (about 90%) is made up of support units, not combat units. So women are not all that limited in terms of number of options, however, they are rather restricted in terms of the "glory jobs".

        To put it in perspective, there are about 150,000 troops in Iraq right now. Only about 15,000 of them are combat soldiers. Which gives you an idea of how unrealistic it is to think the Army can secure a country bigger than Texas (in size and population) with such a small force.

        Iraq was not involved in 9-11. But what about Pakistan and Saudi Arabia? Why do they get a free pass?

        by Zaphod Beeblebrox on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 05:10:47 PM PDT

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        •  N/t, but I read somewhere that a full half (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          aphra behn, Zaphod Beeblebrox

          of uniformed Army personnel were posted in support--in the Civil War.  In World War I, it rose to nine out of ten.  In the Second World War, it was only something like one in twenty-five.  You get the idea.

          Still, it's great that women aren't stuck typing orders anymore.    

          ...a man must use what power he has.--Ovid

          by Ice Blue on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 05:58:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, some of them still type orders. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hrh, Ice Blue, Chincoteague, aphra behn

            19 years old, 4'11"
            2003 high school cheerleader
            2004 Iraq

            Even in Iraq, somebody's got to type those orders.

            Iraq was not involved in 9-11. But what about Pakistan and Saudi Arabia? Why do they get a free pass?

            by Zaphod Beeblebrox on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 06:13:57 PM PDT

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          •  in WW II... (4+ / 0-)

            WAVEs and WACs did more than type orders (Tho' that's important too!) They slowly gained access to all kinds of jobs, especially instructor jobs, which initially were closed to them and which broek all kidns fo barriers. Gunnery instructors, flight instructors--lots and lots of support positions.

            In WW I, it was more of a "type orders" situation (for the Yeoman F and female Marines, I mean...)

            And we'd be remiss if we didn't consider the groundbreakers in military medicine--the nurses who started out without rank or the power to giver orders to corpsmen. I truly admire the nurses of WW II who pioneered such danerous work as flight nursing. There'a a great book called "Albanian Escape" about a group of lfight nurses shot down oevr occupied Albania during WW II. They walked out--a gripping tale, recounted by one of the survivors.

            "This is a Revolution, dammit. We're going to have to offend SOMEbody!"--John Adams, *1776*

            by aphra behn on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 06:19:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  and supply and intel and... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hrh, Zaphod Beeblebrox

              Crap! I forgot all kinds of good examples of things from WW II and after in these fields!

              A woman scientist and naval officer who contributed mightily to both defense and cmputer science was Grace Hopper:
              http://en.wikipedia.org/...

              "This is a Revolution, dammit. We're going to have to offend SOMEbody!"--John Adams, *1776*

              by aphra behn on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 06:21:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not to mentiont he women who ferried new planes (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hrh, Ice Blue, aphra behn

                in Great Britain inb WWII, as well as in America.

                The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                by irishwitch on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 06:46:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  yes and Soviet women o' course... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  hrh

                  who proved themselves able in ground combat AND aerial combat.

                  Astonishing to think we're still fighting over what those women proved could be done 60 years ago!

                  "This is a Revolution, dammit. We're going to have to offend SOMEbody!"--John Adams, *1776*

                  by aphra behn on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 06:54:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  ANd British women weren't allowed to have ammo (0+ / 0-)

                    which left them as sitting ducks for the Luftwaffe who couldn't know they were noncombatanbts.  Many lsot their lives that way.

                    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                    by irishwitch on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:54:33 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Oh yes - Grace Hopper (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                aphra behn

                I was planning to write about her in an upcoming Supervixens diary :-)  You're welcome to do so, though, if you like.  Drop me an e-mail.

                Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

                by hrh on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 04:22:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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