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View Diary: On Kicking Ass and Crashing Gates (380 comments)

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    •  Just a check here (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sarac, wildcat6, fairleft
      Do you REALLY have the numbers?  I thought polling indicated that the US was leaning somewhat towards the legislation?

      (Granted, I could have bad info...I only got that from MSM).

      Best regards,

      The Republicans are on a roll. Now they've introduced a resolution that says we stay in Iraq until Ann Coulter joins the Dixie Chicks...Bokbluster.com

      by USAFguy on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:02:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Welcome USAF guy (0+ / 0-)

        Can anyone help him out with his question?

        A foolish consistency (staying the course in Iraq) is the hobgoblin of George W. Bush.

        by wildcat6 on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:05:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  63% to 32% say follow intl agreements (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sarac, VoicelessInDC, isis2, Lashe

          Good question AF guy. The last numbers (according to pollingreport.com) directly on point are from 9/19:

          9/15-19/06
          CBS News/New York Times Poll (MoE 3)

          "When it comes to the treatment of prisoners of war, should the United States follow the international agreements that it and other countries have agreed to, or should the U.S. do what it thinks is right, even if other countries disagree?"

          Follow Agreements 63%

          Do What It Thinks Right 32%

          Unsure 5%

          In general on terror, it is still one of the Republicans' strong points, though maybe trending in Dems' favor:

          9/22-24 and 8/18-20
          CNN (MoE 3)

          "Do you think the Republicans in Congress or the Democrats in Congress would do a better job of dealing with each of the following issues and problems. Terrorism."

          9/22-24
          Republicans 47%
          Democrats 41%
          No Difference 9%
          Unsure 4%

          8/18-20
          Republicans 48%
          Democrats 38%
          No Difference 11%
          Unsure 3%

          http://pollingreport.com/...

          Thom Hartmann or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

          by fairleft on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:33:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We'd love to show USAF Guy (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lcrp, EeDan, ibonewits, GeorgeXVIII

            the poll with the questions:

            "Do you believe that the US government should use torture in interrogating people suspected of connections with terrorist?"

            "Do you believe that interrogators can get good information from suspects whose heads are dunked under water to induce an imminent fear of death by drowning?"

            "Do you believe that the President should have the power to detain any person, citizen or non-citizen, and hold him/her in detention for life, with no possible oversight from Congress or the courts?"

            "Do you believe that the US government should have the power to execute people after they are convicted in secret trials using secret 'evidence' that they have no opportunity to rebut or even to hear?"

            But nobody's done that poll.  How do you think that would come out?

          •  That is still not on this bill (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            EeDan

            Still nothing on this bill though.

            I am guessing that if people were given the poll: Do you support the rights of habeas corpus for detainees (along with a definition of the legal term) that it would be 70/30 yes. I want to see that poll.

            •  It is close enough (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              EeDan, MikeTheLiberal

              and the numbers are strong enough (remember to think about what the Dems' only and independents only numbers must be) that it makes you think: "What the f-ck, why is Big Dem running scared on this issue?"

              Thom Hartmann or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

              by fairleft on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:50:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  You overestimate the average persons (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MikeTheLiberal

              understanding of polysyllabic language

              Constitutional Checks and Balances: it's not just a good idea, it's the Law.

              by EeDan on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 09:19:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  MIB (0+ / 0-)

                Or, as Agent J said, "A person may be smart; people are stupid."

                Fix the problem; elect a Democrat.

                by MikeTheLiberal on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 09:25:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Then make the point in single-syllable words (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                EeDan

                It can be done, Mark Twain was good at that, Dems should give it a try. Anyway, the people are 63% in favor of following international agreements protecting the rights of political prisoners, as you can see from the post above.

                Thom Hartmann or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

                by fairleft on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 09:42:36 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And that is exactly what we have to do! (4+ / 0-)

                  Rather than saying this:

                  Do you support the rights of habeas corpus for detainees

                  we have to take it to the visceral:

                  Do you believe that the President should have the power to detain any person, citizen or non-citizen, for any reason whatsoever, and hold him/her in detention for life, with no possible oversight from Congress or the courts? Do you believe that the US government should use torture in interrogating people?

                  Because it isn't about some faceless "them".  It's about us.

                  Hat tips to MCP and aldpol for their quotes.

                  Constitutional Checks and Balances: it's not just a good idea, it's the Law.

                  by EeDan on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 10:01:26 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sounds like Louis XVI (0+ / 0-)

                    who could lock people up in the Bastille indefinitely without trial simply by signing lettres de cachet.  We all know what happened to Louis.

                    To quote Patrick Henry:

                    "Caesar had his Brutus; Charles the First his Cromwell; and George the Third..."

                    [interrupted by cries of "Treason! Treason!"]

                    "George the Third may profit by their example. If this be treason, make the most of it."

                    Perhaps we could say that George II has his Kossacks.

                    (- 4.63, - 5.18) "Orthodoxy means not thinking -- not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness" - George Orwell, 1984

                    by mkfarkus on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 11:43:32 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  i.e., US people on the 'do the right thing' side (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            isis2, MikeTheLiberal

            The problem is not them, it's the political class.

            Why is it that most of the Dem Party establishment is quiet on the simple 'follow the Geneva Conventions' issue, which 'the people' (by a margin of 63% to 32%) support (imagine what the Dems only numbers would be)? We had spectacular silence this week by Clinton, Feinstein, Biden and so on. Not all, but most of the the establishment.

            I think people who want to be effective should think about this. Not wring their hands over it and bitch, just think and discuss the 'why'. I don't know the answer.

            Thom Hartmann or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

            by fairleft on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:47:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  On polls: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          USAFguy

          I cannot find one poll out there on this bill. Anyone else have any luck?

      •  Have some vision. (4+ / 0-)

        I'm talking long term, and so is SusanG.

        •  Ok... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Erevann
          It didn't seem to be the gist of the other comment, but I can go along with that.  As one who really does NOT care about polls, I actually admire that approach.

          Best regards,

          The Republicans are on a roll. Now they've introduced a resolution that says we stay in Iraq until Ann Coulter joins the Dixie Chicks...Bokbluster.com

          by USAFguy on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:13:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Taking the Longview (9+ / 0-)

          From Archbishop Oscar Romero:

          It helps, now and then, to step back and take a long view.

          The kingdom is not only beyond our efforts,
          it is even beyond our vision.

          We accomplish in our lifetime only a tiny fraction
          of the magnificent enterprise that is God's work.
          Nothing we do is complete, which is a way of saying
          that the kingdom always lies beyond us.
          No statement says all that could be said.
          No prayer fully expresses our faith.
          No confession brings perfection.
          No pastoral visit brings wholeness.
          No program accomplishes the church's mission.
          No set of goals and objectives includes everything.

          This is what we are about.
          We plant the seeds that one day will grow.
          We water seeds already planted,
          knowing that they hold future promise.

          We lay foundations that will need further development.
          We provide yeast that produces far beyond our capabilities.

          We cannot do everything, and there is a sense of liberation
          in realizing that. This enables us to do something,
          and to do it very well. It may be incomplete,
          but it is a beginning, a step along the way,
          an opportunity for the Lord's grace to enter and do the rest.

          We may never see the end results, but that is the difference
          between the master builder and the worker.

          We are workers, not master builders; ministers, not messiahs.
          We are prophets of a future not our own.
          Amen.

          Don't give up, people. Just give up your notions that we have any "quick fixes." Reclaiming our government is a process, and we each must play a part, whether we see the fruits of our labor or not.

          "Murder, considered a crime when people commit it singly, is transformed into a virtue when they do it en masse." St. Cyprian (200-258)

          by valleycat on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:29:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  couple points (4+ / 0-)

        What percentage of the population, polled or larger, do you imagine understands the letter, spirit, or implications of the legislation?

        And if they did, how would you imagine they'd feel?

        "That rug really tied the room together."

        by The Termite on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:10:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I would say... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pb, The Termite

          About one percent.

          I'm not even sure all the members of Congress understood it.

          Fix the problem; elect a Democrat.

          by MikeTheLiberal on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:26:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm sure that some of them didn't... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MikeTheLiberal

            Quoting myself, from elsewhere:

            Perhaps the real question is, will America notice?

            Take a look at this bullshit: The smart politics of the detainee vote.

            What a crock. Apparently some of our politicians and the media have stopped trying to actually read or analyze what our bills might do, and just guess or assume instead. And incidentally, Menendez gives his reasoning too:

            “In view of the fact that the (Supreme) Court has ruled the existing process unconstitutional, it leaves us without anything. It seems to me while it is not the bill I wanted — as evidenced by the way I voted on the amendments — I think there has to be a process in place. I wouldn’t want those who have committed acts of terrorism to ultimately find the ability to be free by virtue of a lack of a (tribunal) process.”

            Remind me again why they couldn’t be tried elsewhere? Because Bush says so, and you believed him? That is to say, are you a fool, or are you just going senile? Can you think back to the first World Trade Center bombing? Did we have this law then? No? Then how the hell did we deal with it? For that matter, how could we possibly have gotten through Vietnam or World War II?

            Somehow we managed. And we did it all without ceding our basic freedoms that make us all Americans. You traitors.

        •  I guess I look at it a bit differently (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kck
          My prejudiced (ie, without first-hand experience) view is that any adversary we are actually fight in a war will toss out the conventions in a heart-beat....China, nKorea, Sudan, etc.  Al-queda clearly is NOT a participant in the Geneva Conventions.  (I am talking about war, not minor border violations like the EP3 in China).

          I agree that much of the population does not understand the legislation's implications.  At the same time, I suspect much of the population does not expect likely adversaries to care much about it either.

          Just my opinion.  Best regards,

          The Republicans are on a roll. Now they've introduced a resolution that says we stay in Iraq until Ann Coulter joins the Dixie Chicks...Bokbluster.com

          by USAFguy on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:29:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How is what our adversaries might do... (4+ / 0-)

            ...even remotely relevant?

            "That rug really tied the room together."

            by The Termite on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:35:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You're under-estimate the public (3+ / 0-)

            like many of your fellow posters. See the actual polling numbers I've posted a little higher on the page.

            People need to re-up-estimate the public. This is one of the great frustrations in the 'torture' debate is the Dems' never make any (effective) noise on the politically popular, pro-human decency side.

            Thom Hartmann or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

            by fairleft on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:37:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I suspect (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            The Termite, MikeTheLiberal

            much of the population does not expect likely adversaries to care much about it either...

            Screw them, they are not the ones who are going to get tortured by our enemies, it's you dude.  I would rather us follow the letter of the Convention in hopes that our enemies won't go off the deep end of torturing, and if they do we have a moral case in front of world opinion.

            Second, we have sunk into the ranks of third-world, banana dictatorships...er, republics.

            Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind. Therefore, send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. John Donne

            by scurrvydog on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:43:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Which 'adversary'. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MikeTheLiberal

            Osama bin Laden, foreign terrorist, is not in jail. Jose Padilla, US citizen, is and has been for quite some time. So who is the 'likely adversary' here? Is it al-Qaeda? Or is it the anonymous leftist internet terrorist threat, as described in the NIE?

            Anti-US and anti-globalization sentiment is on the rise and fueling other radical ideologies. This could prompt some leftist, nationalist, or separatist groups to adopt terrorist methods to attack US interests. The radicalization process is occurring more quickly, more widely, and more anonymously in the Internet age, raising the likelihood of surprise attacks by unknown groups whose members and supporters may be difficult to pinpoint.

            And as Harry Reid said yesterday:

            this bill authorizes a vast expansion of the President’s power to detain people – even U.S. citizens – indefinitely and without charge. No procedures for doing so are specified, no due process is provided, and no time limit on the detention is set

            Make no mistake--this was the Enabling Act of our time.

          •  Our enemies (4+ / 0-)

            rammed jet planes full of people into buildings full of people.  All civilians.  All innocents.  And they did it on purpose.

            Since they did that, and clearly would have no compunction about doing it again, I guess that means that we should do it too.  (snark)  I thought the whole point of the fight is that we are not them, and don't wish to be.

            Otherwise, let's just start kidnapping people and beheading them on national TV.  After all, Al Qaeda is willing to do that.

            Is this really the argument you want to go with, USAF Guy?

          •  This is about We The People (6+ / 0-)

            My prejudiced (ie, without first-hand experience) view is that any adversary we are actually fight in a war will toss out the conventions in a heart-beat....

            And, that justifies our behavior?  We should do it because others do it?

            Sorry; that's just wrong.  It sounds like a five-year-old saying, "Suzie hit me first!"

            As soon as we say, "Others do it, why not us?", we lose any moral high ground we had, and no longer can be assumed to promote freedom and democracy.

            You may be in the service, and that's both honorable and commendable, but remember your vow to protect the Constitution.  If we're not loyal to the Constitution but to a person, then we exhibit the behavior of a gang, not a civilization.

            Fix the problem; elect a Democrat.

            by MikeTheLiberal on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:52:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Little off topic, but (0+ / 0-)

            ... good to see ya back, USAFguy.

            Was bummed we lost ya a couple weeks back there. :)

            I'll keep an eye out for ya, I got a softspot for AF lifers.

            Knowledge brings fear... Understanding brings courage... Wisdom brings peace. Never give in to despair, my friends, tomorrow's fight requires you today.

            by Erevann on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 03:45:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Danke sehr. (0+ / 0-)

              Sometimes work/life just keeps me from hanging out here.

              Best regards,

              The Republicans are on a roll. Now they've introduced a resolution that says we stay in Iraq until Ann Coulter joins the Dixie Chicks...Bokbluster.com

              by USAFguy on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 06:13:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  We charge forth - with vigor. (0+ / 0-)

          What percentage of the population, polled or larger, do you imagine understands the letter, spirit, or implications of the Constitution? Probably about the same, eh?

          Poll are important to formulate timing, commuications and education plans, not principles.

          > 518,000 American children are in foster care. Got any bandwidth?

          by kck on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:34:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I think it is a broader point (0+ / 0-)

        than whether we have the "numbers" on a particular issue.

        The numbers on broad issues like presidential approval, Congressional approval, Republican party approval, Iraq war approval, and  how is the economy going say that "we" do have the numbers to change the direction of our government.

      •  Yes We Do (0+ / 0-)

        Even if some of those "numbers" don't realize they are our numbers yet.

        They will be.

    •  Patton and Lombardi would be proud (9+ / 0-)

      Helluva pep talk, and speaking only for myself one I badly needed.  Just this once perhaps the outrage to our Country may have come at the right time.  1 month is NOT too long to stay angry about this, and 1 month is not too short to rally and tap into that anger.

      This may finally be the day that Republican's hubris causes them to blow their own foot clean off.  (but after we've secured power we DO need to do something about the 41 turncoats in our own party, lest we appear as unprinicpled as those we replace.

      Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

      by Magorn on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:03:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Invinceable Vince (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        flumptytail

        Greatest motivator known to mankind.

        You get a reco just for mentioning his name.

        A foolish consistency (staying the course in Iraq) is the hobgoblin of George W. Bush.

        by wildcat6 on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:06:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  OH for christ's sake... (6+ / 0-)

        41 "turncoats"? F-- you. There were 12 Democratic senators (Lieberman counted for this purpose) who voted for the bill. The rest of them did not. Democrats consistently vote against Republican crap, and have done so on all sorts of issues that many of them have taken severe heat for. We lost control of the House because many of them had the courage in 1994 to vote their consciences instead of for their careers. How many votes have YOU made over the past 10 years that have threatened your job? I've lost two jobs because I said what needed to be said and what ultimately turned out to be right, so I don't have a helluva lot of patience for people who call other people cowards and turncoats when the name-callers decide to act like children. Sorry, but this issue really has me on edge.

        •  I don't have a legislative vote but (5+ / 0-)

          I WAS a republican in 1999, registered, and fairly well connected at a state level.  A combination of BUsh's primary Run, My sojourn in lawschool (a late life decision I was 30 at the time), and the passage of the Patriot act woke me up and caused me to once and for all turn my back on the party, and had led to the evolution of who and what I am now.

          I chose to be a lawyer because I'm passionate about the Rule of Law and in awe of how well the Uniquely American system has worked for so long (I'm no fool, I've spent my career hip deep in its flaws and shortcomings, but much like the dancing bear, the wonder of it is that it works at all).  
          The more you know about the law, the more you realize what an incredible document the Constitution really is.  The law that was passed yesterday took the heart of the bill of rights (amendments 4-8) and tossed them in a paper shredder.

          There are moments when you either must stand for something, whatever the cost, or be eternally damned as coward by history.  The Civil rights act was one such moment;  this was another.  And history will not be kind to those who voted "aye".

          (and just for one example, can you explain what possible excuse Sen. Neslon of FLA , currently ahead by 20+ points and facing a mentally ill opponent, could have had for his yes vote?)

          Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

          by Magorn on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:33:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, and I don't have any problems with (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mary Julia

            calling the 12 Democrats who voted for this garbage turncoats." But let's not call the whole minority party up there "41 turncoats," because most Democrats voted morally on this issue. And let's also remember that Republicans voted en masse for this travesty, so let's first work on booting out the Republicans, and then we can work on getting folks who aren't morally challenged into primaries. Come on!!! I just don't want us to lose this thing because we're having an in-fight!!!!

            •  nO iwas referring only to the line crossers (0+ / 0-)

              and Yes I KNOW how important getting the Majorities back is, now more than ever so we can repeal this horrible law.  BUT with people like this on "our" side, will that really happen?

              Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

              by Magorn on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 09:28:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  When we retake the majority - (0+ / 0-)

                can we keep their law in place just long enough to treat some of them to "questioning"?

                Constitutional Checks and Balances: it's not just a good idea, it's the Law.

                by EeDan on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 09:44:51 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'll tell ya what.... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  EeDan

                  I just got out of the car from listening to a CSPAN repeat of a press conference Nancy Pelosi, Murtha, and a couple other house members were having on a host of issues, and I was really impressed. She pointed out that the first vote the House will take after the vote to hopefully make her Speaker would be legislation that would sever the connection between lobbyists and legislators, and the fellow in the group who was a lawyer (I want to say Skelton) said that one of the things Democrats are worried about is that the legislation passed yesterday is so fatally flawed that it will reverse any convictions that come about because of its enaction. They all said many good things and I got a good sense of just how powerless the minority is in the House, where the Speaker controls everything.

                  •  Convictions? We don't need no stinkin' (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    steve davis

                    convictions.  There's simply a long list of characters in this administration and it's party that I believe are overdue for "questioning" in regards to their actions over the past 6 years.

                    Constitutional Checks and Balances: it's not just a good idea, it's the Law.

                    by EeDan on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 11:48:38 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Correct me if I'm wrong, (0+ / 0-)

            but when you referred to the '41 turncoats' weren't you talking about those in the Senate and in the House who voted 'Yes'?  

            If so, your math was wrong, but I agree with the sentiment.

            If not, whom did you mean?

            •  its 40-or 41 (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MikeTheLiberal, dmi

              depending on how you tally Lieberman, and yes that is combined house and Senate.  this is what I got from THomas:

              Senate

              1. Carper (D-DE),  
              1. Landrieu (D-LA),  
              1. Lautenberg (D-NJ),  
              1. Lieberman (D-CT),  
              1. Stabenow (D-MI),  
              1. Rockefeller (D-WV),  
              1. Salazar (D-CO),  
              1. Nelson (D-FL),  
              1. Nelson (D-NE),  
              1. Menendez (D-NJ),  
              1. Johnson (D-SD),  

              HOUSE

              1. Andrews
              1. Barrow
              1. Bean
              1. Bishop
              1. Boren
              1. Boswell
              1. Boyd
              1. Brown
              20. Chandler
              1. Cramer
              1. Cuellar
              1. Davis (AL)
              1. Davis (TN)
              1. Edwards
              1. Etheridge
              1. Ford
              28. Marshall 29. Matheson 30. McIntyre 31. Melancon
              1. Michaud
              1. Moore (KS)
              1. Peterson (MN)
              1. Pomeroy
              1. Ross
              1. Salazar
              1. Scott (GA)
              1. Spratt
              1. Tanner
              1. Taylor (MS)

              Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

              by Magorn on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:58:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Twelve in the Senate (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ignacio Magaloni

          And 27 in the House.

          I'm on edge, too.  I'm angry, and trying to decide how to channel that anger, where it will do the most good.

          Fix the problem; elect a Democrat.

          by MikeTheLiberal on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:44:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This is key: does it do more good give the (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mary Julia, MikeTheLiberal

            Party that voted nearly unanimously to trample on the Bill of Rights even more power, or to bide our time, support the dozens of Democrats who voted against this disgraceful bill, and build a better Democratic party?

            Because the two-party system is so legally institutionalized, we need to democratize and fight for our liberties in and through the Democratic Party. This is no shortcut, but it is the only viable way to fight this fascist wave.

            And I am proud of every Democrat who is fighting for us today.

            How many Republicans can you say are fighting for us?

            Let's get out there and sweat the work of liberty.

            Thanks, SusanG, for your clarity of thought, inspiring eloquence, and vision.  

            Peace is respect for another's rights. Benito Juarez

            by Ignacio Magaloni on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 10:00:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Excellent post, Susan... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mary Julia, Gorette, MikeTheLiberal

      thank you for writing what I've been thinking and trying to diary - much less eloquently than you.

      "We're all working for the Pharoah" - Richard Thompson

      by mayan on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:25:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  We're not just the Democratic Party... (3+ / 0-)

      we're the Americans, too--not Bill Frist, Trent Lott, George Allen, George Bush, or Dick Cheney.

      •  those people (0+ / 0-)

        are NOT americans
        they are shithead assholes dickfaced aliens

        and santorum, cornyn, condi, rummy, laura stepford bush, john ensign, et al

        He may talk like an idiot, and look like an idiot, but don't let that fool you: he really is an idiot. Send him back to his father and brothers...

        by distributorcap on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 10:38:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I'm ponying up (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mary Julia, MikeTheLiberal

      After pouring hundreds of dollars into Dean and other candidates in 2004 and volunteer time, too, I decided to sit 2006 out.  Aside from a couple of $20 donations, and my $20 monthly Democracy bond, I have.

      But yesterday's events...  I'm donating $50 to someone, somewhere.  Not sure yet, but I know I have to do something.  I can't not respond to this.

      It's good to have DailyKos around.

      The excessive use of television and automobiles can be hazardous to your health.

      by Greenkermie in AZ on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:37:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ACLU (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dmi

        But yesterday's events...  I'm donating $50 to someone, somewhere.  Not sure yet, but I know I have to do something.  I can't not respond to this.

        I started with a new membership for $50 to the ACLU this morning.

        I think I may need it some day.  :eek:

        Fix the problem; elect a Democrat.

        by MikeTheLiberal on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:58:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What about giving 10 campaigns $5 each? (0+ / 0-)

        That way you'll encourage 10 candidacies, rather than boosting the morale of just 1. I'm splitting $100.00 among 20 campaigns today, $5.00 each. Did that in August. Will do it again in October and November.

        Damn it, they're on to us! Quick, break out the fearmongering MSM noise machine, or we'll all wind up in prison! --Fearful NeoCon Fascists

        by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 10:42:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The definition of insanity (0+ / 0-)

      is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result:

      And if this set of netroots candidates wins and it turns out they don't come through for us, kick them the hell out in the next election. We'll do it over and over and over again until we get it right, if that's what it takes.

      There are deeper things wrong here if the system keeps forcing our candidates to throw principle away and vote for bills they know are evil. We are not talking personal failings of individual senators and congresspeople here. Just replacing them is not getting to the root of the problem. Thinking of it this way - as simply a failing of individuals - is part of the problem.

      No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a part of a continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, [America] is the less

      by Alien Abductee on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 10:52:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  In Days.... (0+ / 0-)

      Court Challenge to New Detainee Law May Come In "Days"
      By Justin Rood - September 29, 2006, 1:02 PM

      http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/...

      With President Bush poised to sign the White House-backed detainee treatment bill into law, groups are promising to challenge it in court "in days."

      “I don’t think there’s a snowball’s chance in ‘H’ that this will be found constitutional,” Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, told Congressional Quarterly (sub. req.). CCR represents a number of Guantanamo prisoners.

      Strangely, some senators who voted for the bill weren't convinced of its constitutionality. Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA), who voted for the bill even after his amendment to preserve certain rights for detainees was defeated, called the proposal "patently unconstitutional on its face," The Washington Post reported.

      When CQ asked Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), who negotiated with the White House to win minor concessions on the legislation, if the bill was constitutional, he responded "I think so."

    •  that is if the voting machines (0+ / 0-)

      count the votes instead of katherine harris, and now i can get put in jail for saying that last statement, oh what a nation i live in....

      Al Gore is my President. We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. --Albert Einstein

      by PBMUS on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 04:07:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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