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  •  Welcome USAF guy (0+ / 0-)

    Can anyone help him out with his question?

    A foolish consistency (staying the course in Iraq) is the hobgoblin of George W. Bush.

    by wildcat6 on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:05:06 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  63% to 32% say follow intl agreements (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sarac, VoicelessInDC, isis2, Lashe

      Good question AF guy. The last numbers (according to pollingreport.com) directly on point are from 9/19:

      9/15-19/06
      CBS News/New York Times Poll (MoE 3)

      "When it comes to the treatment of prisoners of war, should the United States follow the international agreements that it and other countries have agreed to, or should the U.S. do what it thinks is right, even if other countries disagree?"

      Follow Agreements 63%

      Do What It Thinks Right 32%

      Unsure 5%

      In general on terror, it is still one of the Republicans' strong points, though maybe trending in Dems' favor:

      9/22-24 and 8/18-20
      CNN (MoE 3)

      "Do you think the Republicans in Congress or the Democrats in Congress would do a better job of dealing with each of the following issues and problems. Terrorism."

      9/22-24
      Republicans 47%
      Democrats 41%
      No Difference 9%
      Unsure 4%

      8/18-20
      Republicans 48%
      Democrats 38%
      No Difference 11%
      Unsure 3%

      http://pollingreport.com/...

      Thom Hartmann or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

      by fairleft on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:33:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We'd love to show USAF Guy (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lcrp, EeDan, ibonewits, GeorgeXVIII

        the poll with the questions:

        "Do you believe that the US government should use torture in interrogating people suspected of connections with terrorist?"

        "Do you believe that interrogators can get good information from suspects whose heads are dunked under water to induce an imminent fear of death by drowning?"

        "Do you believe that the President should have the power to detain any person, citizen or non-citizen, and hold him/her in detention for life, with no possible oversight from Congress or the courts?"

        "Do you believe that the US government should have the power to execute people after they are convicted in secret trials using secret 'evidence' that they have no opportunity to rebut or even to hear?"

        But nobody's done that poll.  How do you think that would come out?

      •  That is still not on this bill (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        EeDan

        Still nothing on this bill though.

        I am guessing that if people were given the poll: Do you support the rights of habeas corpus for detainees (along with a definition of the legal term) that it would be 70/30 yes. I want to see that poll.

        •  It is close enough (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          EeDan, MikeTheLiberal

          and the numbers are strong enough (remember to think about what the Dems' only and independents only numbers must be) that it makes you think: "What the f-ck, why is Big Dem running scared on this issue?"

          Thom Hartmann or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

          by fairleft on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:50:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You overestimate the average persons (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MikeTheLiberal

          understanding of polysyllabic language

          Constitutional Checks and Balances: it's not just a good idea, it's the Law.

          by EeDan on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 09:19:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  MIB (0+ / 0-)

            Or, as Agent J said, "A person may be smart; people are stupid."

            Fix the problem; elect a Democrat.

            by MikeTheLiberal on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 09:25:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Then make the point in single-syllable words (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            EeDan

            It can be done, Mark Twain was good at that, Dems should give it a try. Anyway, the people are 63% in favor of following international agreements protecting the rights of political prisoners, as you can see from the post above.

            Thom Hartmann or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

            by fairleft on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 09:42:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And that is exactly what we have to do! (4+ / 0-)

              Rather than saying this:

              Do you support the rights of habeas corpus for detainees

              we have to take it to the visceral:

              Do you believe that the President should have the power to detain any person, citizen or non-citizen, for any reason whatsoever, and hold him/her in detention for life, with no possible oversight from Congress or the courts? Do you believe that the US government should use torture in interrogating people?

              Because it isn't about some faceless "them".  It's about us.

              Hat tips to MCP and aldpol for their quotes.

              Constitutional Checks and Balances: it's not just a good idea, it's the Law.

              by EeDan on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 10:01:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sounds like Louis XVI (0+ / 0-)

                who could lock people up in the Bastille indefinitely without trial simply by signing lettres de cachet.  We all know what happened to Louis.

                To quote Patrick Henry:

                "Caesar had his Brutus; Charles the First his Cromwell; and George the Third..."

                [interrupted by cries of "Treason! Treason!"]

                "George the Third may profit by their example. If this be treason, make the most of it."

                Perhaps we could say that George II has his Kossacks.

                (- 4.63, - 5.18) "Orthodoxy means not thinking -- not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness" - George Orwell, 1984

                by mkfarkus on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 11:43:32 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  i.e., US people on the 'do the right thing' side (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        isis2, MikeTheLiberal

        The problem is not them, it's the political class.

        Why is it that most of the Dem Party establishment is quiet on the simple 'follow the Geneva Conventions' issue, which 'the people' (by a margin of 63% to 32%) support (imagine what the Dems only numbers would be)? We had spectacular silence this week by Clinton, Feinstein, Biden and so on. Not all, but most of the the establishment.

        I think people who want to be effective should think about this. Not wring their hands over it and bitch, just think and discuss the 'why'. I don't know the answer.

        Thom Hartmann or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

        by fairleft on Fri Sep 29, 2006 at 08:47:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  On polls: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      USAFguy

      I cannot find one poll out there on this bill. Anyone else have any luck?

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