Skip to main content

View Diary: Today is the end of the electronic voting machine (372 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Stupid (1+ / 2-)
    Recommended by:
    bear83
    Hidden by:
    phenry, lotlizard

    Just fill in your ballot when your husband is at work......or take it to work with you......or fill it out while in the bathroom.  DUH!  If your husband forces you to fill it in a certain way then you should ask yourself why you married such an asshole to begin with.  This is a non-issue and I hope you are just being silly by bringing this up.

    •  Duh? (4+ / 0-)

      So the whole family sits down to vote on the gay-marriage amendment, and where is Jimmy's ballot?  "Oh, I um filled mine out in the bathroom.  And mailed it already."

      Opting for privacy leaks information.  We're talking about a large number of people whose husbands/parents don't know they vote differently.  They want to keep that secret.  If they sneak out to vote, then they are giving away that they have something to hide.
       
      And no, it's not a non-issue.  Again, we are talking about a large number of voters in this situation.

      •  And if Jimmy's Dad doesn't like it (0+ / 0-)

        Jimmy's Dad can go to prison for voter intimidation.  

        •  What intimidation? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lotlizard

          We're talking about peer pressure here.  There is no overt act to punish with a prison sentence.

          Alice and Bob are married.  Bob votes (R), and assumes Alice does too.  Alice secretly votes (D).  This is a very common situation.

          Now they have mail-in ballots, so they can vote together in the "privacy" of their living room.  Alice chickens out and votes (R) because she doesn't want Bob to know she's been voting (D).  

          Now tell me, where is the act of intimidation that will send Bob to jail?  

          •  My wife and I voted separately this past weekend. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gkn

            She had time to do it in the morning, and I got around to it in the afternoon.

            Alice can tell Bob she doesn't want to vote right now and do it at another time.  Frankly, it's more convenient that way because each residence gets only one set of voters' pamphlets.  It's a pain to keep passing it back and forth to read up on candidates and ballot measures.

            I appreciate your willingness to create these scenarios, but I do not believe -- nor have I seen any data indicating -- that these are valid concerns.  

            Sorry.

            •  Wow, hard to believe you don't believe this (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MarkDQ

              It seems so obvious to me that this would be a big problem.

              -Alan

              -9.00, -3.69 Bush, 12/12/05: "I think we are welcomed [in Iraq]. But it was not a peaceful welcome."

              by SlackerInc on Tue Nov 07, 2006 at 01:37:57 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  And yet, it isn't. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TheRover

                Do you have evidence that this is occurring in Oregon?

                •  Hard Evidence? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  SlackerInc, Caj

                  When I described my 18 yr old students telling me that their parents "helped" them fill out their absentee ballots--or even filled these ballots out for them, you replied by blaming these kids for letting their parents see their ballots, and saying that my concerns were "unjustified."

                  So I'm really not sure why hard examples would persuade you that husband/wife voter influence is a problem, since such examples seem to have made no difference to you when it came to parents voting on behalf of their kids.

                  •  I can't see that this is in Oregon (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    TheRover

                    Since you're talking about absentee ballots.

                    Wherever you're located, I hope you explained to your students that voting is a right and a responsibility of citizenship, that it's their right to vote however they want, and that no one is allowed to coerce them to do otherwise.

                    And - I do think your concerns are unjustified.  My 18 year old voted by himself.  I have trouble believing other 18 year olds are unable to do the same.

                    •  So your 18 year old... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Gator Keyfitz

                      is just like every other 18 year old?  Come on, Ernest: surely you know better than that.

                      And there are women out there, lots of them, who are married to hardcore dittoheads but who secretly vote Democratic themselves (at least in some elections--these women I think are often swing voters).  My former mother-in-law was one such person, and her family is such an archetypical one I have to think this is fairly common.  And knowing such a patriarch's personality, I have no doubt that filling out the ballots would be a family affair.  It wouldn't be as some scoffers imagine, like Dad is playing the role of evil dictator; in his mind he's just "helping" his family to make sure they don't make some error that costs precious GOP votes.  But you'd better believe he'll blow his top if someone goes "off the reservation"--and the other members of the family usually aren't rebellious enough to want to deal with that hassle.

                      Furthermore, in one of the celebratory posts about VBM, people talked about how fun it could be to have "voting parties" where people sit around with some drinks, ballots, voter guides and laptops (for research) and debate whom to vote for.  Sure, sounds great--until the "party" is held at the Southern Baptist church potluck.

                      Bad bad bad bad BAD idea.

                      -Alan

                      -9.00, -3.69 Bush, 12/12/05: "I think we are welcomed [in Iraq]. But it was not a peaceful welcome."

                      by SlackerInc on Tue Nov 07, 2006 at 02:24:46 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Nope. Disagree. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        TheRover

                        I think it's a good idea.  I think it has been proven in Oregon and is being proven in Washington.

                        It may not work everywhere, but the fear mongering and hypothesizing being put forth in these comments are not founded on fact.  They are worry fantasies, often based on misinformation or misunderstanding.

                        I think we'll have to part company on this.  You have your fears based on guesses and worries.  I have my confidence based on facts and a decade of experience.

                        •  How do you know... (0+ / 0-)

                          this isn't already happening?  Where would you find your "facts" to refute this?  Just the fact that it obviously can easily happen makes it unnecessary to prove that it does (and it's pretty tough to prove something like this happens, especially behind the private veil of the nuclear family home).  I'm using the same logic here, btw, that works fine for vulnerabilities in Diebold machines.


                          -Alan

                          -9.00, -3.69 Bush, 12/12/05: "I think we are welcomed [in Iraq]. But it was not a peaceful welcome."

                          by SlackerInc on Tue Nov 07, 2006 at 02:52:01 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  The "facts" (0+ / 0-)

                            reside in the absence of credible examples of this actually happening.

                            Listen - I'm willing to be convinced, but I haven't seen any reports of this in Oregon.  No cases being brought forward.  It doesn't appear to be a problem.

                            Is it is potential problem?  Certainly.  

                            Is it an actual problem?

                            Judging from the evidence I've seen, no.

                            Have you seen anything indicating that this is a pervasive problem in Oregon?

                          •  You're still missing my point (0+ / 0-)

                            If a wife goes ahead and votes the same way as her husband because she doesn't want to risk starting a big brouhaha, why would she "come forward"?  Understand, I'm not saying he takes her by the neck and threatens her life unless she votes the way he tells her.  He has no idea he has "intimidated" her into voting a certain way; he simply assumes they are on the same page politically, the way he has always assumed.  Only now that she doesn't have the automatic privacy of the voting booth, and he "helpfully" oversees the voting process (though in his mind he's doing this simply because he thinks she might goof it up, the way she does when she tries to operate his many A/V remote controls), she actually does vote Republican to avoid a fight.

                            So what's she going to do, go hold a press conference to announce that her husband didn't actually threaten her or do anything illegal, but she voted differently than she really wanted to out of self-consciousness?  The same woman who didn't want to start a fight within the family is going to go blab about it to the whole world?  I mean, what planet are you living on?

                            -Alan

                            -9.00, -3.69 Bush, 12/12/05: "I think we are welcomed [in Iraq]. But it was not a peaceful welcome."

                            by SlackerInc on Tue Nov 07, 2006 at 03:53:32 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This fearful wife that you're so concerned about (0+ / 0-)

                            Is she a really good liar?

                            Is she capable of withholding information from her spouse even under extreme intimidation and pressure?

                            She would have to be for your concern to be valid.

                            And - in Oregon if you wish you can go to a county elections office and fill out the ballot there on election day.

                          •  No she wouldn't (0+ / 0-)

                            What you're still missing is that the husband I'm talking about isn't inherently suspicious of his wife.  He assumes she votes the same way as he does because (a) she's his wife, and he's egocentric and sexist, as right wing patriarchs tend to be; and (b) she never argues with him about politics.  (One might think the fact that she also doesn't get all riled up about right wing issues like he does might be a clue, but this is a common difference between the sexes and doesn't tend to arouse suspicion.)  So she doesn't get any "extreme intimidation and pressure" from him.

                            That would all change, though, if everyone else the guy knows were voting at their kitchen tables, under the watchful eye of the patriarch, overseeing the process to make sure there are no errors or spoiled ballots to dilute the family's political power.  (Again, remember that he thinks of his patriarchal role not as we do--that of a tyrannical jailer--but as God's chosen family leader, a benevolent protector of his family's interests.)  Under these circumstances, if his wife wanted to go off and fill out the ballot in an unusually secret way, that's what would set his radar off, and then the questions and pressure would begin.

                            -Alan

                            -9.00, -3.69 Bush, 12/12/05: "I think we are welcomed [in Iraq]. But it was not a peaceful welcome."

                            by SlackerInc on Tue Nov 07, 2006 at 04:09:22 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Why? (0+ / 0-)

                            Is she a really good liar?

                            Is she capable of withholding information from her spouse even under extreme intimidation and pressure?

                            She would have to be for your concern to be valid.

                             
                            What extreme intimidation?  We are describing a situation in which the pressure is not extreme.  
                               
                            Example:  I grew up in a conservative family.  If we voted as a group, I'd feel pressured into voting along.  I wouldn't face violent reprisal (my parents were not abusive,) and yet there would still be pressure not to "come out" as pro-choice, for example.
                             
                            There would be no extreme intimidation or pressure.  When I did vote (by secret ballot) nobody asked me how I voted, nobody pressured me, I didn't have to lie.  See?

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            ...the absence of credible examples of this actually happening

                            ...is not evidence of absence.  You cannot "judge by the evidence you've seen" because you haven't seen evidence either way.

                            Let me ask:  has anyone done any study to test for this specific phenomenon?

                            We do know that people in OR overwhelmingly prefer mail-in ballots.  We know that this is true across all major demographics:  men, women, the young, the old.  We do know that logistically it's wonderful and everyone finds it incredibly convenient.  This is good.

                            But has anyone polled the populace to ask:  "were you planning on voting for someone else and felt intimidated because people would know how you voted?"  What percentage?

                            If not, then what's the evidence?

                          •  I'm unaware of any polls that asked that question (0+ / 0-)

                            You're getting into philosophical territory here - asking me to prove something isn't happening.  That's not possible.

                            Have surveys been conducted asking that question?  I'm unaware of any.  Perhaps you should suggest one.  I suspect the Republican Party of Oregon would support you on it.  

                            And - one can infer from the widespread support of VBM that a lot of people aren't being intimidated into voting ways they don't want to; or else they'd prefer another method of voting.

      •  Even if you go into a booth..... (0+ / 0-)

        THAT's Private.  It doesn't matter whether you sit down together and fill out different ballots or you go into a booth and vote differently.  The fact is that you have two people who vote differently and if there's a problem between the two of you about it then that's a problem for the TWO OF YOU, NOT THE REST OF US.  I go back to my original proposition that if this is a problem then maybe you married the wrong person.

        THIS IS THE SILLIEST GODAMNED THING I HAVE EVER HEARD OF IN MY LIFE....AND JUST THE SORT OF STUPID SHIT THAT TOO MANY LIBERALS SPEND THEIR TIME ON.  Jeez people.  Get a grip.

    •  I would troll rate you for this response... (3+ / 0-)

      if I could. It's a very thoughtless and rude response to Caj's very real concern. You are coming across as someone who has very little understanding of disfunctional/abusive/coercive relationships if you think that sneaking off to the bathroom to fill in your ballot is a way for an abused partner to keep something secret.

       "DUH" right back at you.

      Lisa

      I don't care what Armando does for a living.

      by Boston to Salem on Tue Nov 07, 2006 at 12:57:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  But I would add (5+ / 0-)

        That this is a problem that goes far beyond abusive/coercive relationships.
         
        A lot of people just happen to secretly vote differently than the rest of their family.  Even in "normal" households, in the absence of any overt abuse or coersion, people often want to keep their choices to themselves.
             
        Even in a non-abusive household, the truth coming out can lead to arguments and uncomfortable situations.  This is enough to lead people to chicken out.
         
        Caj

      •  And I would troll rate you right back (0+ / 0-)

        Waaaaahhhhhhhhh!

      •  Disfunctional relationships (0+ / 0-)

        disfunctional/abusive/coercive relationships

        Why would you be in a relationship with someone who does this to you in the first place?

        •  good question (0+ / 0-)

          because you have major "issues"? perhaps, who knows? That isn't the issue. The issue is making sure that people don't feel pressured to vote the way others want them to. Hence the need to insure privacy and safety.

          Lisa

          I don't care what Armando does for a living.

          by Boston to Salem on Tue Nov 07, 2006 at 03:42:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site