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View Diary: Ford's Loss - Why the Rec'd Diary is wrong (and dishonest) (349 comments)

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  •  Crusader's "point" was not dishonest (10+ / 0-)

    Although I disagree with Crusader's conclusions, they are perfectly valid and I'm happy for him to write about them for discussion.  I love debate and am content to refute his diary and let the readers decide for themselves who is correct.

    The "dishonest" part was Crusader presenting himself as a Ford supporter "since he won the primary" and implying that his conclusions were based on his observations during the campaign and not something he'd decided on before the primary (and telling everyone who would listen).

    •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

      in my view, you have not refuted his diary.  Nor have you convinced me that gays and lesbians do not deserve equal protection of the law.  The Poshard example is real - some, including me, WILL NOT vote for anyone, even a Dem, who vocally opposes the 14th amendment's equal protection clause.

      I suspect that there are others like me in Tennessee (especially because my family used to all live there and many cousins still do).  Ford (and you) ignore equal protection of the laws at your peril.

      Let justice reign though the heavens tremble

      by Viceroy on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 11:18:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wow (5+ / 0-)

        Ford (and you) ignore equal protection of the laws at your peril.

        I believe Rook, and myself, and most of the other Ford supporters here voted NO to the gay marriage ban.
        I don't think this diary or the one referred to in this diary set this as a for-or-against gay marriage issue.  No candidate in the state of Tennessee (outside of Memphis) will win with a pro-gay platform.  The last person who tried was Jeff Clark in 2000, running against Bill Frist.  He lost, with Frist getting nearly twice as many votes as he did (620,000 to 1,200,000).  It will never work, not for decades.  Which is terrible.  But it's the truth.
        Supporting Ford is not the same as supporting the ban on gay marriage.  I'm sorry if you interpreted it as that.

        There are atheists in foxholes. But there are no Evangelicals.

        by Sidof79 on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 11:28:14 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wow (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          slatsg, churchylafemme

          Someone actually addressed the point!

          I saw Ford's ad touting his opposition to equal rights for gays and lesbians and that, in and of itself, tanked my support for him.  Other candidates  - this year - did not take the Poshard route as Ford did.  He lost - they won.  Crusader's point is real, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not.

          The truth is that candidates ignore the 14th amendment at their peril.  When Ford cut that ad, he lost votes.

          Let justice reign though the heavens tremble

          by Viceroy on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 11:44:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wow BackAtcha... (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bula, tabbycat in tenn, GoldnI, NDakotaDem

            Did you know Ford opposes the death penalty, supports affirmative action, has routinely voted for more funding for planned parenthood and other family planning? Did you know that Ford has voted to support more funding for alternative sentencing because our prisons are filled to capacity with people--mostly black--who are there for petty crimes? It costs these inmates their lives, families their livelihoods, ends their voting rights and costs states a whole hell of a lot of money better spent elsewhere...These are all progressive positions that Ford supports.

            Harold Ford ran a brilliant campaign and shut out most of the avenues the RNC could have used to attack him. The only way they could win was by smearing him with lies.

            You bought the smear and are now helping the RNC do it again. I hope you're proud.

            •  What "smear" did I buy? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              emsprater

              I saw Harold Ford himself say that he opposed equal rights for gays.  Was he smearing himself deliberately??

              Do you support equal rights for gays and lesbians??

              Let justice reign though the heavens tremble

              by Viceroy on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 12:11:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  does crusader have two accounts? (1+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                theralph
                Hidden by:
                emsprater

                sure sounds lke it. crusader aka viceroy aka schizo aka shut up already troll

                www.lovecraftbiofuels.com drive your car for free!

                by ucla grad102 on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 12:18:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Did you also know (6+ / 0-)

                that Harold Ford voted for legislation allowing gay couples to adopt?
                That's a really liberal stance from a state when probably 3 out of 5 people believe homosexuals will burn in hell no matter what, and that people who support them will too.  A lot of people are convinced that gays only want to adopt kids to molest them (because that's what gays do- molest little boys.  See Foley, for example).  Just because Ford is opposed to gay marriage does not mean he is opposed to all equal rights.
                And please, for the love of Darwin, stop accusing Ford supporters of being anti-gay.  My sister is gay.  I have been an advocate for gay rights (and atheist rights) far longer than I have been a Democrat.  I think Ford's stance is appalling, and what makes it worse is his use of his religious background as justification for discrimination.  But I fought to get him elected, anyway.  Big picture.

                There are atheists in foxholes. But there are no Evangelicals.

                by Sidof79 on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 12:25:55 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Excellent point, Sid, Thanks... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DaveV, Turkana, GoldnI

                  I'd posted that earlier, but forgot to mention it in all of my position arguments this afternoon. My blood's boiling too much I guess. Grrrrrr.....

                •  I certainly agree... (0+ / 0-)

                  Ford's use of the church in the ad where he touted his anti-gay position was reprehensible; implying that the loving, caring Christian religion would actually sanction invidious discrimination against gays and lesbians.  Like I said above, that tanked my support for him completely - which was Crusader's point.

                  I am pleased that Ford's anti-gay stance does not extend to adoption.  And, even if he were opposed to equal marital rights (but did not tout it), I think I could stomache your big picture analysis.

                  But, like Poshard in 1998, who cut a particularly nasty anti-gay ad, deliberately touting homophobia, for me, is a sure way to lose my vote.  It happend in 1998 here in Illinois; if I lived in Tennessee, it probably would have happened again in 2006.

                  Crusader's point remains - it is ignored at the Dems' peril.

                  Let justice reign though the heavens tremble

                  by Viceroy on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 12:35:16 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Viceroy "Touts" Word of the Day ??? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    theralph

                    I saw Ford's ad touting his opposition to equal rights for gays and lesbians

                    Ford's use of the church in the ad where he touted his anti-gay position was reprehensible;

                    And, even if he were opposed to equal marital rights (but did not tout it), I think I could stomache your big picture analysis.

                    TOUT MY ASS

                    Democrats: Putting Intelligence Back Into National Security

                    by Robert Davies on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 02:27:09 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Do you support equal rights (0+ / 0-)

                      for gays and lesbians??

                      Let justice reign though the heavens tremble

                      by Viceroy on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 07:28:27 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  What does that have to do with anything? (0+ / 0-)

                        Is that the best retort you can think of??
                        I haven't done this yet, but I'm guessing if I looked at all your comments, half of them would just be accusations or inquisitions about whether people support gay rights.
                        Let me go ahead and answer all those questions.
                        Except for maybe a few lurkers and trolls, everybody on this site supports equal rights for gays and lesbians.  If you are trying to pick a fight on this issue, go somewhere else.  You won't get it here.
                        People can support Ford and gay rights at the same time.  Sounds crazy, I know.  I promise it's true.

                        There are atheists in foxholes. But there are no Evangelicals.

                        by Sidof79 on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 08:02:41 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  I forgot (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    GoldnI

                    What was Crusader's point again?
                    I thought his point was that Ford went out of his way to chastise liberals, making them not want to vote for him, not because of his stance on gay marriage.
                    Every other Democrat we elected this year has the same stance (except Cohen, but he has the luxury of being in Memphis).
                    The last Democrat to run for a high profile office in Tennessee with a platform that included gay rights was Jeff Clark in 2000.  He, uh, lost.  A lot.
                    I hate that it's the truth, but it is.

                    There are atheists in foxholes. But there are no Evangelicals.

                    by Sidof79 on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 02:38:33 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  How many ran ads?? (0+ / 0-)

                      standing in front of a church pointedly mentioning the opposition to the 14th amdnment's equal protection clause??

                      Let justice reign though the heavens tremble

                      by Viceroy on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 07:27:34 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  That doesn't make any sense (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        GoldnI

                        None of them did, of course.
                        You think that would have made them better?
                        Or do you just keep spouting the same few points, hoping that people will stop touting facts?
                        Did I use that word correctly?

                        There are atheists in foxholes. But there are no Evangelicals.

                        by Sidof79 on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 07:56:59 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  But that's what bothered people, you know? (0+ / 0-)

                          It wasn't that he opposes gay rights - it's that he found it necessary to bring it up CONSTANTLY... without ever saying anything that suggested that he respected the opinion of those who disagree.

                          •  I hate to say he had to (0+ / 0-)

                            but he had to.
                            The Corker camp made it a point to bring up his support for gay rights at every opportunity.  They brought up the fact that he voted for other gay rights legislation.  They brought up the fact that he had promised to vote against DOMA, before he wound up voting for it (and honestly, I think he voted for it because he knew he was going to run for Senate and would have gotten about 30% of the state to vote for him had he voted against it).
                            And yes, several times he said something to the effect that he respected the opinions of those who disagreed.  But those statements never aired on FOX or MSNBC.  The first time I saw him speak was the end of August when the canvassers were getting started.  He said he believes the way he does because he was raised that way, and he has nothing against people who believe any differently.  That's just his opinion, the way his values are, having been raised in a very religious environment.
                            It doesn't surprise me at all that this never made it to any media whatsoever.  It's not a very exciting declaration.

                            There are atheists in foxholes. But there are no Evangelicals.

                            by Sidof79 on Mon Nov 13, 2006 at 07:59:25 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No he didn't (0+ / 0-)

                            as you very well know.  Is that all you've got??

                            Let justice reign though the heavens tremble

                            by Viceroy on Sat Nov 18, 2006 at 08:42:40 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, I Do, Viceroy (4+ / 0-)

                But, as a Tennesse voter I also know Ford's position on OTHER issues, which I DO support.

                Here's how you smear Ford:

                I saw Ford's ad touting his opposition to equal rights for gays and lesbians and that, in and of itself, tanked my support for him

                First of all, you dismissed a candidate who is a Democrat in a red state, without taking into consideration that this position is the position of 80% of voters in that state.

                Second of all, you dismissed that candidate based on that one issue, as you said yourself.

                Third of all, there are a host of Democrats who ran this time and took the same position. Did you immediately DISMISS each and every one of them?

                Fourth, are you a Tennesee voter? If so, did you vote for Corker? And, if you're not a Tennessean, you dismissed Ford over this issue and you're also dismissing every Tennessee Democrat when you take such a sanctimonious, holier than thou stand on Tenneessee Democrats' elected candidate?

                You might have said you were unhappy with Ford's position on this particular issue, but he's a Democrat, so you'd support him if you were a Tennessee voter. But, you didn't say that.

                So, in essence, you give support to Republicans who pressured Ford to take such a position in the first place, by saying that one issue "tanked" him in your eyes.

                Get my point?

                •  I get your point (0+ / 0-)

                  but you rather clearly do not get mine.  Other candidates sharing Ford's position did not tout it like he did.  Let me repeat - I WILL NOT vote for any candidate who touts homophobia.  Period.

                  In my view, he smeared himself when he cut that ad.  By citing his announced position, I do not smear him.

                  I am an independent - not a Democrat.  If you wish my vote added to yours, I humbly suggest that your candidates lay off the virulent anti-gay positions.  When they go rabidly anti-gay, they lose votes and support all around the country.

                  It's valid point, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not.

                  Let justice reign though the heavens tremble

                  by Viceroy on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 12:45:35 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Viceroy, check his record. He voted to require (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bula, Turkana, Timothy J, GoldnI

                states (including TN) to recognize gay marriages performed legally in other states. He also voted to maintain the right of gays to adopt.

                •  Thanks I didnt know this (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  tabbycat in tenn

                  By voting to recognize gay marriages performed legally in other states it shows to me this is a political issues for Ford not one of personal values.

                  I am betting twenty years ago a person with the above views would be considered a liberal.

                  •  No, he didn't. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Viceroy, lovin lansing MI

                    He supported DOMA, which says that states don't have to recognize gay marriages performed in other states.

                    He also supports the federal marriage amendment, which would make gay marriages illegal in all states.

                    •  He voted NO but it has the opposite meaning (0+ / 0-)

                      of what you said. See here:

                      comment

                      •  Then why (0+ / 0-)

                        would he support a federal amendment banning it?

                        And why would he support DOMA itself?

                        And why would he support a constitutional amendment in Tennessee?

                        His vote to keep jurisdiction in federal courts is not a vote in favor of states recognizing gay marriages performed in other states. It's hard to tell what he meant by that vote.

                        But given his repeated support for anti-gay measures, I find it impossible to believe that this one time he'd vote in favor.

                        •  And (0+ / 0-)

                          he also called Corker's ad citing this vote as support for gay marriage "blatantly false and misleading."

                          From the Knoxville News.
                          (Registration/Bugmenot required)

                        •  fiddler, according to our local (Knoxville) TV (0+ / 0-)

                          station in their fact-checker segment, a No vote would make it illegal for other states to ignore legal gay marriages performed in another state. I found this gay organization that was urging a "No" vote on this bill:

                          gays ask for "No" vote

                          As for why he would be for the awful amendment in Tennessee? 81% voted for this amendment. He would have had no chance to win if he came out in favor of this. I realize this is an awful position to take but in TN it's the only position a politician could take at this point. I hope that deep down inside he really doesn't feel this way. It may be that due to his deep religious beliefs that he has convinced himself that gay marriage is wrong but that he feels that other states have the right to legislate differently and that TN and all states should be forced to recognize this.

                          I realize the language in this bill is very confusing so when the RNC starting running ads that he favored gay marriage I looked up what position gay blogs took and they were for a "no" vote. At least the ones I found were.

                          •  They asked for a "no" vote (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            tabbycat in tenn

                            because the bill would have prevented plaintiffs from using federal courts to challenge the law.

                            The bill only removes DOMA from federal judicial review. That's all. It has nothing to do with whether states should/should not recognize same sex marriages performed in other states.

                            More on HR 3313:
                            Log Cabin Republicans
                            Soulforce
                            Tammy Baldwin
                            ACLU

                            And here's why Bob Barr voted "no." A no vote isn't necessarily support for LGBT rights.

                            Personally, I don't care about Ford's personal beliefs. I care more about his actions. And he's not only done very little to support my community, he's actively gone out of his way to find common cause with those who would deny our rights.

                          •  I can't argue with that fiddler. Maybe as he (0+ / 0-)

                            grows older he'll vote differently (given the chance again). I only know of one politician in TN who would vote the right way on this issue (Mr. Cohen in Memphis). It was interesting when I was researching this that Ford was given a 100 by the Human Rights Commission in the 107th Congress and then he dropped to 44 and then to a rating of 24 for the current congress. I guess we can see when he decided to run for Senate.

                          •  And thanks for the links. It was a bad bill all (0+ / 0-)

                            around and I see what you mean about it not necessarily being read as supporting LGBT rights or not.

                          •  Thank you. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            tabbycat in tenn

                            It's too bad the bill passed.

                •  I'm aware of his record... (0+ / 0-)

                  on DOMA and the full faith and credit clause and it is at variance from what you cite.  I suggest that you re-check his record as it is most decidely not what you suggest.

                  Let justice reign though the heavens tremble

                  by Viceroy on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 07:31:05 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I did not know all of that (0+ / 0-)

              maybe Ford should have talked about some of that during the campaign.

    •  I know him (0+ / 0-)

      and he did work for Ford and vote for Ford.  He also tried hard to get others to do the same, especially after the Chattanooga debate performance, which he talked up to alot of people.

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