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View Diary: Apologies to DailyKos and to Senator Reid (282 comments)

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  •  You weren't alone, spoon: Recommended By: (5+ / 0-)

    Deep Dark, edverb, fly, Ottoe, norm, Jett, tangoasg, JekyllnHyde, Alumbrados, Angie in WA State, mbw, tmo, underwhelm, MediaRevolution, JR, coral, Aeolus, pb, Nathan in MD, DC Pol Sci, ferg, SarahLee, jmelli, alyosha, teacherken, ks, Hell Upside Down, Trendar, Thom K in LA, joejoejoe, Windowdog, Jeff Simpson, TaraIst, lrhoke, Unstable Isotope, RunawayRose, Winger, Bob Love, bosdcla14, tomathawl, Shockwave, Jambro, boy asunder, mlharges, CleverNickName, jacobo, genethefiend, misterajc, CanMan, Jim W, eeff, djinniya, RKS, gecko, WI Deadhead, RFK Lives, lzachary, Joe B, madwayne, TGos, Nonie3234, memberofthejury, daaawi, RubDMC, eyeswideopen, alain2112, Microangelo, km4, kwinz, CoolAqua, TracieLynn, mftalbot, corndog, cyberKosFan, macdust, mentaldebris, Silverleaf, annrose, SecondComing, CoolOnion, biscobosco, KMc, snoopydog, Benjaminwise, Geonomist, ptmflbcs, hekebolos, roses, bobinson, murphsurf, luku, Miss Blue, Bearpaw, MJB, Swordsmith, itskevin, corncam, chrisfreel, thingamabob, evansb2, librarianman, fumie, ctsteve, Jesterfox, rioduran, Gonzophile, splashy, bewert, arkdem, Cedwyn, artebella, TheKickingDonkey, wader, Redfire, nephalim, iowabosox, webweaver, mayan, chinkoPelinke, caseynm, BarbinMD, sockpuppet, TexDem, jsmagid, oldjohnbrown, Dallasdoc, by foot, pat bunny, Chicago Lulu, notableabsence, crackpot, exiledfromTN, organize, jlamkin, ArcXIX, GreatDane, Randomizer, rlharry, Timbuk3, sommervr, inclusiveheart, dcookie, potato, Kalil, AllisonInSeattle, djtyg, airshipjones, apdva, donna and paul, schuylkill, CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream, SanDiegoDem, mosesfreeman, Little Red Hen, rickeagle, Captain Doug, rickroks, zeus4prez, Gowrie Gal, weelzup, libnewsie, nailbender, davidincleveland, joanneleon, lcs, 3goldens, kingubu, liberal atheist, LarisaW, LisaZ, theKK, Paul Goodman, Jashugan, ejmw, Melody Townsel, Webster, clammyc, Simplify, rjo, fedupinca, Valtin, chicoTowner, roninbushido, FutureNow, Blissing, buckeyedem08, teknofyl, Pam from Calif, truebeliever, GreyHawk, annefrank, Little Lulu, foxglove, RElland, The Raven, FightTheFuture, wiscmass, Floja Roja, dem4evr, Lisa Lockwood, Tuba Les, sillia, dsteffen, jilikins, CaliFloridan, Cory Bantic, nymosyn, Brian B, flyoverstatesman, hcc in VA, empathy, Arsenic, AmyVVV, Land of Enchantment, RainyDay, xaxnar, Mehitabel9, SSMir, occams hatchet, Showman, zot23, trashablanca, buddabelly, danmac, Icy, New Deal democrat, tarheelblue, Milly Watt, vigilant meerkat, sherlyle, BlueInARedState, dopper0189, Capn Guts, VolvoDrivingLiberal, cookseytalbott, Dvalkure, kestrel9000, The Wizard, Wary, luckydog, dave1021, kck, donnas, blueoasis, campdurning, b1oody8romance7, sheilae13, global citizen, Tanya, jasonbl, condoleaser, Data Pimp, justalittlebitcrazy, southernphilosopher, Kitten, NearlyNormal, plf515, CTLiberal, bleeding heart, Dinclusin, middleagedhousewife, blitz boy, rage, CA Nana, zeke7237, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, means are the ends, Cato the Elder, lightyearsfromhome, liberalpercy, DKHOLLA, chgobob, AmySmith, Mary2002, OdinsEye2k, bstotts, Autarkh, Lesser Dane, xenopus17, AntKat, Joelarama, bigchin, tikikiki, wildNwonderful, Cronesense, Loudoun County Dem, california keefer, uniongal, suburi, gloriana, ChakraTease, CTMET, scgk5k, Step Beyond, kath25, ebiker, DWG, james risser, Rex Manning, getlost, jayden, Asian Dave, World Patriot, DemMarineVet, Steffo, Ken in Tex, The Officious Intermeddler, Dion, Wryyyyy, madgranny, JML9999, mrbubs, homerun, keikekaze, spy boy, alba, kwestone, davewill, feingoldforVP, Han Solo, GlobalWarmingWest, cindymutti

    Seems like a lot of us had a good deal to learn from BTD.

    Thanks for the righteous apology.

    Thanks for slapping those goddam hogs away from the trough.

    by perro amarillo on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 02:20:50 PM PST

    •  I didn't recommend it. (7+ / 0-)

      Lemmings.  All of you. :)

      If you take yourself too seriously, no one else will.

      by Yoshimi on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 02:41:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Note. I did recommend it, but sometimes I (4+ / 0-)

      recommend diaries based on the comments rather than the diary itself.  The original diary had some interesting discussions and debate. And I ended up learning something from it and this diary. One of the reasons I love this place.

      Kudos to BTD and thereisnospoon. That's the way you do it.

      Now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, fanatical, criminal. - Supertramp, "The Logical Song"

      by mentaldebris on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 03:29:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Since we've all learned (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      carolita

      a lesson about fact-checking, could someone please enlighten me as to why, exactly, the original diary was incorrect?  (see my comment thread)

      The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty. - John Adams

      by tipsymcstagger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 06:19:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'l try one more time (3+ / 0-)

        To end debate, necessary before a vote on a measdure can be taken, there must be either unanimous consent, of a cloture vote by 3/5 (60 votes) of the full Senate.

        That does not mean that the measure need be debated throughout that time. It means that whenever a vote is scheduled on the measdure, one Senator can say he does not want debate to end. Thus, to overcxome that one Senator's objection, a motion for cloture must be filed. That is what occurred the other day. Reid could not muster 60 votes in favor of the motion. Therefore, debate was not ended, and a vote on the measure could not be held.

        Another cloture can not called for 72 hours by anyone who did not vote AGAINST cloture.

        Can debate be held open on the floor? Sure. Harry Reid can schedule any debate he wants. The Republicans do not have to participate. And a vote of cloture can not be held until the 72 hour period is over.

        Then, if Reid still can not muster 60 votes, then measure still can not come to the floor.

        Sure.

        Why in the hell this would be considered a mnsart idea is beyond me.

        Is this what you want to do?

        Apparently, spoon now sees how idiotic this would be.

        I have no idea what you think about it.

        •  Thank you (0+ / 0-)

          I know you've already discussed this at length with spoon, so I appreciate the re-visiting of this.  One thing still confuses me:

          • If I understood your comments in the original diary correctly, your position was that the situation in which a filibuster would rightly be regarded as one of obstruction by the minority rather than the majority would be one in which the majority had the necessary votes for cloture, but a minority Sen. was filibustering the cloture vote itself, a la Thurmond.  Now, I don't deny the apparent fact that Thurmond did this, but I can't understand how this was possible under the rules.  Though the cloture procedure is cumbersome, the majority presumably also had the votes to end Thurmond's maneuver.  In other words, it was more properly a delay than a filibuster.  I bring this up because, if this is so, then your position would seem to be that the only proper filibusters are those which may be defeated.  And, if that is so, then your debate with spoon was more properly over normative rather than procedural matters, in which case this apology appears to have been overstated.

          The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty. - John Adams

          by tipsymcstagger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 07:03:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  correction (0+ / 0-)

            should read: "then your position would seem to be that the only filibusters that should ever be forced are those which may be defeated".

            The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty. - John Adams

            by tipsymcstagger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 07:07:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with that comment (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tipsymcstagger, vcmvo2

            if I understand it correctly.

            Apologies for my previous typos. Did you need any words clarified?

            •  But, I mean, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Big Tent Democrat

              is it the case that, if Reid scheduled debate on the bill for all of next week, all the minority would have to do is send a Repub. down to the floor once every 72 hours to object to cloture?  In other words, they could essentially force the Dems, in a manner of speaking, to filibuster the bill for them (by holding the floor the entire time)?  If so, then you are certainly correct.  

              But, if it is the case that Reid can force the Repubs to debate the bill through scheduling, then it seems to me that people are conflating the filibuster with the failure to pass a bill due to threat of filibuster.  In this case, if the majority so wills it, the minority cannot really "filibuster" a bill while sitting in their offices penning their memoirs.  And I think this was always understood by everyone - there are pros (publicizing the minority's opposition to a bill) and cons (obstructing Senate business) to the filibuster, for sure.  In this case, all of this hoopla would be little more than spoon arguing the pro side and you the con, with this normative debate unnecessarily becoming a procedural argument.

              The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty. - John Adams

              by tipsymcstagger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 08:03:06 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  that's the whole story (0+ / 0-)

          funny how sometimes they manage to call another cloture vote early.

          also very interesting the way sometimes Senators that WANT cloture vote against it when they see they've lost...

          I don't know the rules are so black and white and there is no room to fight harder.

          dude, you did not CORRECT spoon on how to fight, you endorsed not pressuring Harry, it's "irresponsible".

          I'm assuming you know the real problem with fighting harder for cloture is likely to be more related to support for the actual bill... or possibly some plans to abuse the conference committee system.

          strong infrastructure, fair play and sober leadership

          by pyrrho on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 07:42:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  "mnsart idea"? (0+ / 0-)

          Damned creative spelling for my money...

          But seriously, for all you do, A, Thanks....

          -7.88, -6.72. I AM paying attention, and I am so fucking outraged I can't see straight. The W in Fascist is silent; unfortunately, W isn't....

          by caseynm on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 10:00:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  seems like (0+ / 0-)

      yes, those people don't know how to accept defeat

      don't pressure your leaders!

      we lose filibuters, we just have to face it, all filibusters, if we are in the minority, we lose when we use it, when in the majority, we lose when they use it.

      everyone has learned, the filibuster has a conservative bias... and now we know.

      strong infrastructure, fair play and sober leadership

      by pyrrho on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 07:44:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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