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View Diary: Obama Spokesman Robert Gibbs (304 comments)

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  •  I don't care about Nice. (2+ / 0-)
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    cdndem, PhillyGuy03

    And this isn't about Nice.  I don't give a flying fuck whether or not Obama is Nice.

    This is about someone promising one thing and doing another.

    This is about integrity.

    I do care about integrity.

    And quite frankly it boggles my mind that there are so many people on DK who seem to think that integrity is negotiable.

    Money talks, so speak up -- Draft Al Gore

    by Mehitabel9 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 12:43:01 PM PST

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    •  Let me add to this. (0+ / 0-)

      I would have considerably more respect for Obama if he'd said something like this:

      "I want to have a clean campaign.  I want to focus on the issues.  I will do whatever I can to run a clean, honorable campaign.  But if my opponents lie about me or make false accusations about me, or run misleading attack ads about me, I will fight back with every means at my disposal, and those will be considerable."

      That, I can respect, even if I don't particularly like it.

      Money talks, so speak up -- Draft Al Gore

      by Mehitabel9 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 12:46:46 PM PST

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    •  I understand (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      where you're coming from.  Flying fucks are, rightfully, not to be given regarding "niceness".  

      As for integrity...I believe that Dick Cheney, as an example, is a man of complete integrity in the sense that he is completely, unapologetically an evil asshole with nothing but bad intent for everyone other than his immediate gene-pool-mates.  Yet, I still don't like him.

      I must point out that, above, you inferred that integrity ought to be non-negotiable; yet, below you seem to indicate it is entirely negotiable (or at least respectable), depending upon the actions of one's opponent.  I have conflicted feelings myself.

      I do know that, although a better world may be possible, in this world the high road doesn't lead to the White House or any place of political power.  That IS a shame.  

      It would be better if masses of people were inspired by reasoned debate and displays of virtue, but that is not the case.  Masses of people are moved by fear and manipulation.  Masses of people like their political philosophy boiled-down to bumper-sticker size.

      I hope this can change.  I do not know if it can.  Losing elections certainly won't be an effective catalyst for change, and the requirements for winning seem to destroy the virtues one would like to preserve.

      It sure ain't tic-tac-toe, Professor Falken.

      •  Heh. (0+ / 0-)

        I had a very long discussion on this very topic once with someone who (coincidentally, and it's neither here nor there) turned out to be a bit of a sociopath himself.

        His POV regarding the concept of integrity was/is that integrity is an absolute in and of itself.  He maintained that Hitler had integrity because he was 100% faithful to his vision and beliefs.

        My POV was/is that integrity can't exist in a moral vacuum.  There is no integrity in evil, even if it's pure evil.

        As far as what I posted above -- hmmm.  The second part certainly does allow for compromised integrity.  I guess what I'm saying is that if Obama is going to compromise his integrity, he needs to be honest about it.  If he were to be honest about it, I'd respect him more.  But to say "I'm going to run my campaign with integrity" -- or words to that effect -- and then to turn right around and act in a way that negates the words, is utterly reprehensible to me.

        I do know that politics is nasty business.  But WHY must we just all throw up our collective hands and say "Well, that's the way it is and there's nothing to be done"?  WHY can't we at least make it known to Obama that if this is how he's going to run his campaign, he's going to lose support from the very people he claims to represent?  WHY can't we keep pushing for public campaign financing?  WHY do we just roll over and obediently accept this crap?  WHY can't we make it clear to all of the candidates that we don't mind if they fight hard, but we won't tolerate them fighting dirty?  WHY?

        Money talks, so speak up -- Draft Al Gore

        by Mehitabel9 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 03:11:07 PM PST

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        •  Sorry so long (0+ / 0-)

          to respond to your thoughtful comments.

          I feel the same anger and dismay that you speak of in regard to politics as practiced, but I am not certain that it CAN be any other way in a democracy.  At no point in history can I find any evidence that it has ever been substantially different.  

          So do we give up and give in?  No, I don't think so; however, withdrawing our support from the best available because they are not perfect is, I think, a formula for failure.  We all have to decide for ourselves at what point we "walk the deal." What faults and inconsistencies can we live with?  Which ones are deal breakers?

          Politics is about power, and power is about imposing one's will on the world.  Anyone, no matter how nice they seem, who believes they should be able to impose their will upon masses of people is probably, to use your words above, "a bit of a sociopath."  

          The best we can probably hope for is to keep our sociopaths on tight leashes in the form of laws and the protections afforded by our Constitution (the disregard for which is one of the most disturbing tendencies of the current crop of sociopaths running the executive).

    •  Dude... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      How many times are you going to repeat your same drivel?

      Just change your name to AstroTurfForClinton.

      As I just lectured to you in a previous comment:

      If Obama hires this guy--who has an emormous talent for the unsavory--and then holsters him, doesn't that speak volumes about the Obama campaign? Doesn't that say that he has a "deadly weapon" but he refuses to use it? Isn't that the kind of "integrity" that you're lambasting him for?

      The truth is, you don't know shit about what's going to happen or why he was even hired by OFA.

      The truth is that this is a MADE UP issue.

      When OBAMA runs an ad like this, THAT will be hypocrisy. Right now, it's just AstroTurf laid by Hillary.

      •  First of all (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wu ming, a a

        I'm not a dude.

        Second of all, I don't support Hillary and never have.

        You need to remove the blinders.  Just because you're blindly following Obama off of whatever cliff he points you to, doesn't mean I'm blindly following Hillary or anyone else.

        Money talks, so speak up -- Draft Al Gore

        by Mehitabel9 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 03:12:48 PM PST

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      •  MADE UP (0+ / 0-)

        The issue is not made up.  Obama has very consciously laid down a marker about how politics is done.  It is very interesting b/c he is so sincere, and he is touching a chord with people.  Also, voters tend not to get emotional about 'process' issues... they tend to connect more to issue that affect their daily lives... taxes, health care, jobs, schools, etc. But they are connecting with this.  So the question becomes, how does Barack Obama deliver on his promise to do politics in a new and different way that isn't small, or mean, or personal?

        That is truly an interesting question--if he figures it out, we could have a real change.

        But look.  The problem with Bush's integrity is he campaigns on one thing ('compassionate conservatism') and then heads off in the opposite direction.  Does anybody think he's really a compassionate president?

        The problem with Ralph Nader's integrity is that his central message ('there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans') is just not true.  Does anybody really believe Gore would've invaded Iraq?

        The problem Obama is now faced with is that his central message ('we need to change our politics... our politics is small') doesn't exactly fit with some of the people he has hired to run his campaign.

        They may be great campaigners, but as a group, Gibbs, Burton, Plouffe, Axelrod... these are hardened smart experienced campaigners who have done lots of high profile campaign work with and for old-school DC politicians like Gephardt and Toricelli and others.  

        I personally don't have a complaint against the staff he's hired.  They're smart go-getters. But I wonder if over time, we will start to see some difference between Obama's rhetoric about our politics and the tactics these guys uncork in what is going to be a long and important fight.

        Frankly, it's a real question.  It's not made up.  The only thing made-up is your suggestion that Obama hired the "deadly weapon" with the intent of keeping him holstered.

        "Calmer than you are."

        by Sheffield on Thu Feb 22, 2007 at 08:22:09 PM PST

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