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View Diary: Experts hint at provability of Jesus tomb (80 comments)

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  •  Let's not play word games. (0+ / 0-)

    Probability has nothing to do with faith.

    Refresher 101: Science isn't in the business of proving anything. It can only disprove. If a hypothesis has survived repeated vigorous attempts to disprove it, that does make it highly likely to be true. There's still no guarantee that a more ingenious attempt to disprove it won't find a flaw that requires a revision to the hypothesis.

    And "science" isn't trying to prove this is the tomb of the historical Jesus. Real scientists are considering all the alternatives, and assigning probabilities that will change as new evidence becomes available.

    The makers of this... documentary... are not scientists. They may not even be accurately reporting the scientific evidence that has been found so far.

    If the historical Jesus died and was buried and did not rise again in the flesh... well, the same was also true of every other human being of his or any other era. A lot of bones were buried back then. You don't have to be a fundamentalist to notice that it is actually rather unlikely that this is really Jesus's tomb.

    I'm willing to be convinced. But the evidence would need to be pretty overwhelming.

    Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is. - TNH

    by Canadian Reader on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 09:50:14 AM PST

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    •  does Jesus have DNA? (0+ / 0-)

      i would say science rests on faith, a prosecutor goes before a jury with DNA evidence and says the reliability is 1 in a million, or a billion, but it is not absolute. in the case of circumstantial evidence much lower thresholds can make an event the truth, and the world moves accordingly.

      religion rests on apriori assumptions. the fundamentalists seem to want to take the reverse tack that would compromise science in the current situation, when in fact it is much more likely that this is the tomb of the historical Jesus, because there weren't that many people alive at the time. one in a million, or one in a hundred thousand?

      I suppose the next question is does Jesus have DNA? and if Jesus has DNA could we use that DNA to clone a copy?  I'm not all bothered by this, because it really only proves most of the Christians case that Jesus did really exist, without compromising any  articles of faith. There is nothing here that proves he was not the son of god, or was not resurrected in the spirit, or at least in the flesh for a time. Jesus did bring the dead back to life, but none of them gained immortality in the process, they eventually died a second time.
      but Christians first of all have long considered science the enemy, so they react automatically to anything which disturbs their fairy tale world, as if they were trying to prove that the bible is a myth. Nietszche was right i'm afraid, Christians hate actuality, even when it confirms their beliefs.  

      "Everything is chrome in the future..." Sponge Bob Square Pants

      by agent double o soul on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 11:44:23 AM PST

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      •  I can't let that go. (0+ / 0-)

        Christians first of all have long considered science the enemy, so they react automatically to anything which disturbs their fairy tale world, as if they were trying to prove that the bible is a myth. Nietszche was right i'm afraid, Christians hate actuality, even when it confirms their beliefs.

        Maybe the fundamentalists where you live meet that description, but you are slandering the Christians I know.

        Moreover, if you think probability is the same thing as faith, then you need to spend a few years playing role-playing games with polyhedral dice to get a better feel for what probability means.

        Did Jesus have DNA? Well, if you accept the majority theological position that he was truly incarnated in human flesh, he'd pretty much have to, wouldn't he?

        Anyway. Let's wait for the documentary to present its evidence, shall we, before proclaiming that it is "much more likely that this is the tomb of the historical Jesus"? From the advance press releases, it's seeming much more likely that this is a case of making bricks without straw.

        Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is. - TNH

        by Canadian Reader on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 12:26:48 PM PST

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        •  what Einstein meant (0+ / 0-)

          i believe, when Einstein said that god does not play dice with the universe, he meant that probability is foreign to the laws of nature, because it implies randomness. that said man does play dice with the universe, and i understand a great deal about probability i think.
          you are willing to concede that Jesus has DNA, I am willing to accept the possibility that his DNA is not like anything we have seen. I am open to that, perhaps because I respect the possibility that Jesus said he was not of this world, and he meant it. That is another issue which sends Christians into fits of consternation, Jesus might have been from another world...

          to return it all to science, only a system of probability, which allows for something like the black swan event, could ever allow for the presence of the son of god, or any other holy, or extra-terrestrial person on earth, without there being more than one. only science allows us to consider that Jesus was unique, under the terms which theologians have described. there is nothing to account for it outside the laws of probability. the other more natural explanation, the historical jesus, the one Nietszche describes resides in actuality, and man hates actuality, to the extent that abstract reasoning is a tool which he uses against that actuality, or nature. to conquer nature, and among the many facets of nature we aim to conquer, is sin.  
          Christians have been slaughtering themselves for centuries, much less slandering. there is one priceless quote from all of Gibbon, which i paraphrase, that while the Romans did brutalize the Christians, their actions were nothing compared to what Christians did to themselves.

          "Everything is chrome in the future..." Sponge Bob Square Pants

          by agent double o soul on Thu Mar 01, 2007 at 02:19:01 PM PST

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