Skip to main content

View Diary: 18 Dems Cosponsor AWB II, Forget Why They Were Elected (161 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Yeah, if you want to make sure... (11+ / 0-)

    ...that pretty much every gun owner in America votes against whatever Dem is up for election, regardless of their other positions.

    People, at the very least, this is a big loser for the Dem party.  We should support the Entire Bill of Rights.

    Sheesh.

    Read my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

    by Shadan7 on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:12:32 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  It's not anti-gun. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AggieDemocrat, mango

      It's anti-semi-automatic rifle.  If you need one of those you have other issues.  As an heirloom I would rather pass on a pair of Fujinon FMT-SX 10x50 binoculars than an assault rifle that killed the krauts or whatever, this fear of regulating assault rifles is a DLC red herring IMHO.

      "Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

      by reef the dog on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:17:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Do you even know what one is? (9+ / 0-)

        A semi-automatic means it reloads itself each time you pull the trigger, using gas pressure, and then it has to be fired again. Single shots. That's it. Call it an auto-reloading rifle.

        That's all it does.

        And they ARE USED FOR SPORTS AND COMPETITION.

        Do you know what the most-used gun for crime is? It's not a semi-automatic rifle, nor a semi-auto pistol.

        It's the lowly 38 Special revolver, any specimen thereof that's been made for the past 80 years, all nearly the same. And usually stolen.

        And, of course, criminals do not obey ANY of these laws.

        "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

        by Loboguara on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:19:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You don't need a semi (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          delver rootnose

          for sports or competition.  It has nothing to do with the accuracy of the shot whatsoever,  It's just another stupid "convenience" like a can opener or automatic garage door opener, makes people soft in my opinion.

          "Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

          by reef the dog on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:26:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You don't need a car that goes 150mph, either. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Shadan7, vmibran, Billy Bova, duha

            Shall we assume that you're going to misuse your car and limit its speed mechanically to 65mph so you can't hurt anyone?

            "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

            by Loboguara on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:27:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I have a Prius (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              delver rootnose

              there's no way it would go thatfast nor do I rate my cars that way.

              "Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

              by reef the dog on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:30:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And so you want to make sure... (0+ / 0-)

                ...that everyone else has your exact same choices in the matter, eh?

                Read my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                by Shadan7 on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:32:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Don't even know (0+ / 0-)

                  what you're saying.

                  "Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

                  by reef the dog on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:35:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Simple. (9+ / 0-)

                    You don't want a gun, don't get one.  No one is forcing you to do so.

                    But in presuming that you can make that decision for others, you will offend millions of middle-of-the-road gun owners who will, indeed, vote based on the perception of which party respects their right to own a gun.

                    I've said it countless times before here - we should respect the entire Bill of Rights, not just the ones we find convenient.  

                    Read my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                    by Shadan7 on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:39:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It's not anti-gun. (0+ / 0-)

                      This is BS.

                      "Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

                      by reef the dog on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:45:43 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No, it's just... (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Hannibal, Loboguara

                        ...anti-guns-you-don't-like.  Damned inconvenient, these civil rights, aren't they?

                        Read my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                        by Shadan7 on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:55:51 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  That's the thing. (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Shadan7, buddabelly, Da Rock

                          The .223 Remington round used by a semi-auto civilian-legal AR-15, which is "scary", is a far less lethal round than the 30-30 Winchester round used in cowboy movies and by people's granddad in an old lever-action wooden-stocked Marlin 336.

                          The 30-30 has far, far more armor-piercing ability, knockdown power, and ability to cause catastrophic tissue damage. But the gun doesn't "look scary", whereas the AR-15 looks like the M-16 used by our troops, so it's prone to be banned.

                          What was that about not judging on appearances alone? Isn't that a progressive value?

                          "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

                          by Loboguara on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 09:12:28 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  The 30-30 doesn't exactly come with a 30 or 20 (0+ / 0-)

                            round clip. Claiming that an AR-15 isn't particularly deadly is not a great argument.

                          •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

                            Get a Colt Lightning. Pump-action, holds 14 rounds, lots of different centerfire calibers. If you hold down the trigger and fast-stroke the pump, you can be through the whole mag in seconds, accurately. Just as fast as a scary semi-auto.

                            And THAT was sold in the 1880's.

                            Other sorts?

                            I have a Swiss K-31 from 1943. Straight-pull bolt. I can operate it as fast as a semi-auto, detachable magazine, and 7.5x55 Swiss is the same, ballistically, as .308 Winchester (7.62x51 NATO). Same exact bullet on the case, same energy, same distance, same power when it hits, and actually better accuracy. The FAL, which uses .308, is on this list, the K-31 is not.

                            Appearances.

                            Scary things.

                            "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

                            by Loboguara on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 09:21:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Modern military weapons... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...are nearly recoil-free, and it is considered a benefit that they do not kill, only wound - because it ties up more resources on the other side.  The most lethal weapon I own is a 12 ga pump shotgun, in terms of lethality - yet it is generally considered to be a 'sporting' (i.e., hunting) gun.  

                            Yet people who argue that guns should be restricted stay away from shotguns here.  Why?  Because they know that it'll just offend hunters.  And lose votes.  Well, here's a news flash for those folks - the effort to eliminate guns from our culture isn't going to work, and your desire to do so is just going to relegate the Dems to minority-party status forever.

                            Read my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                            by Shadan7 on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 09:21:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If you are having a difficult time killing (0+ / 0-)

                            someone with an AR-15, you are a terrible shot.

                          •  Let's hope noone here is trying (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Shadan7

                            Since the military uses the M16/M4.

                            "War is the ultimate reality-based horror show." - Colonel David Hackworth

                            by Hannibal on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 09:30:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The AR-15 isn't all that differnet from an M-16. (0+ / 0-)
                          •  True (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Shadan7

                            Just the ability to go full-auto really.

                            "War is the ultimate reality-based horror show." - Colonel David Hackworth

                            by Hannibal on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 09:35:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, it's like a Humvee to a cushy Hummer H2. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Shadan7

                            The M-16 is a select-fire weapon that can fire three-round bursts.

                            The AR-15 is a civilian semi-auto-only rifle that just happens to use the same mechanical platform, which was proven to work.

                            It has about as much similarity as a cushy, plastic-doored Hummer H2 does to an armored military Humvee.

                            "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

                            by Loboguara on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 09:38:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It doesn't matter which Humvee runs (0+ / 0-)

                            you over. You'll still be dead.

                          •  I'm sorry, you've wrecked the metaphor. (0+ / 0-)

                            "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

                            by Loboguara on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 10:40:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  12 ga is the home protector of choice (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Shadan7

                            nothing stops a burgler faster than the CA-CHING of a 12 ga being chambered .....

                            It doesn't really matter if I'm wrong I'm right Where I belong I'm right Where I belong.

                            by Da Rock on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 09:25:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't know (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Shadan7

                            Pitbulls work pretty damn good for home defense too.

                            "War is the ultimate reality-based horror show." - Colonel David Hackworth

                            by Hannibal on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 09:31:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Gotta feed them .... (0+ / 0-)

                            and they poop....  8-)

                            It doesn't really matter if I'm wrong I'm right Where I belong I'm right Where I belong.

                            by Da Rock on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 09:47:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, just as advice... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Shadan7, 0wn, Da Rock

                            While that may be a deterrent, if someone's hopped up on crystal meth, they're unlikely to even notice.

                            If that makes them flee, good, but don't ever count on that. That's a good way to get killed when they go beserk and rush you instead. Any "defensive shotgun" instructor will tell you that. Also that if you have a home defense shotgun, muzzle down, even if they grab it, you'd get them in the legs or waist, and always be aware of what's beyond your target, that even buckshot goes merrily through quite a bit of sheetrock.

                            You see, (and this is to others posting here), responsible gun owners take the responsibility of this seriously, and study all this. Criminals don't...and they don't obey any of these laws either.

                            So what good does it to do harass the responsible, law-abiding people who might one day save your neck from a criminal? It's happened, many times.

                            Passing laws like this declaws the good, responsible, sane and law-abiding people who would protect the innocent when the police can't come, as Katrina showed.

                            This does nothing for criminals, who ignore all the laws anyway. Nothing. Nothing at all. They own illegally, buy illegally, and carry illegally. They don't care.

                            "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

                            by Loboguara on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 09:31:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  True enough -- if you don't know how to handle (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Shadan7, Loboguara

                            a gun please stay away - my backup is a .45 Smith loaded with Golden Sabers ...

                            True story aside ... dunno if its too old to Google.

                            Austin Texas 70's ... single mom woke up and heard noises coming from her 14 year old daughter's room .... she went to investigate ... guy was in the act of raping her daughter and started to run down the stairs to get away.

                            He picked the wrong house that night ... mom was Texas State .45 Champion that year ... she hit him square in the back of the head with a wad cutter ... he never raped anyone again and was implicated in several rapes prior to this ... police gave her an award for stopping his "reign of terror".... moving target, dark, and running downstairs ... nice shot.

                            how do I know? I was a volunteer cop at the time and was called out. It was a tad hard to ID him though.

                            It doesn't really matter if I'm wrong I'm right Where I belong I'm right Where I belong.

                            by Da Rock on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 10:00:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  and for every one of these ... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...types of stories I can tell you dozens of stories where a legal owner of a gun kills his wife and or family in a case of domestic violence and just as many cases where thier house gets robed and the gun is used in a crime later.

                            We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

                            by delver rootnose on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 12:08:06 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'll take my chances with MY family (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Loboguara

                            I don't know about yours so maybe you are right and your family should not have a gun after all you know them best - when I do not have mine on me they are in a very secure gun safe - too much $$ to chance being robbed and I agree lets not let them fall into the wrong hands.

                            If you want to kill someone there are many alternatives to guns -- poison, knives, strangle, etc ... people can be very creative.

                            It doesn't really matter if I'm wrong I'm right Where I belong I'm right Where I belong.

                            by Da Rock on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 06:13:08 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The reason is.. (0+ / 0-)

                            ...is that many of these law abiding gun owners use them on thier family in domestic violence cases and even more have those guns stolen from them and used on the street.  Better to have less guns in circulation.

                            BTW.  would you support a law that would make you criminaly or civily liable for any crime that is commited with a gun registered to you or are you one of those types that think gun regritry laws are bad as well.

                            We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

                            by delver rootnose on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 12:06:03 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  I own several guns and... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ablington, MO Blue

      This issue would not make me vote republican.

      We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

      by delver rootnose on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:21:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good for you. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        espresso

        But there are millions of gun owners - perfectly fine, safe, and law-abiding folks - who would cross over on this very issue.  And have.

        Read my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

        by Shadan7 on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:27:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Would you vote for Bush today (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          delver rootnose

          if that were the issue at hand?  If Kerry had said he would support this would you have voted for Bush or not voted? OK thaqnks for ruining the world over your need for bigger and faster guns.

          "Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

          by reef the dog on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:32:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I love my... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          eleming

          ..country more than I love my guns.  If you vote republican over this issue I do not see how you can claim any love of country.

          We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

          by delver rootnose on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:36:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good for you. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            espresso, vmibran, buddabelly

            But there are millions of voters out there who love their guns more than they love your party, and will vote for the other guy if you take a position like HR 1022.

            Read my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

            by Shadan7 on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:42:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Fine. Go ahead. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              delver rootnose

              Join the Republicans.  Good riddance. Maybe you can get a job with NRA. Maybe you can get on FOX and defend your positions with these canned arguments.

              "Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

              by reef the dog on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:46:51 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ah, yes, (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                vmibran, buddabelly, 0wn

                ...everyone who doesn't agree with your positions on guns should be kicked out of the party.  

                Tell it to Kos.  And to Howard Dean.  

                Read my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                by Shadan7 on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:48:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  That's not the point (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                espresso, Shadan7, vmibran, buddabelly
                There is a large number of voters, probably in the six to seven figures, maybe eight, who have never heard of Daily Kos. They have never heard of any of the things we hear about what the administration does to this country every day. They do not know what the Democrats and Republicans really stand for outside of the soundbites that TV news tells them and what they hear at the bar.

                They do know that someone saying they cannot buy a powerful weapon is weakening their ability to defend themselves if they ever need to. Even if it would only be a once in a lifetime event for one in a thousand people, they understand the loss of personal power on a basic gut level, and emotions have a tendency to trump logic in the voting booth.

                Given how close the last several elections have been, it would be nice to have these votes on our side in 2008 and not on the other side.

            •  "Your party".. (0+ / 0-)

              ...so you are a Republican.

              We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

              by delver rootnose on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:51:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh, yeah... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                vmibran, Loboguara, harrylimelives

                ...I'm a "sleeper" troll who has been around nearly as long as you have, and has countless comments and diaries supporting the Dem party.

                Yeah, right - I'm a Repub.  Gee, wanna call my dog a name, too?

                Read my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                by Shadan7 on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 08:53:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Amazing how some assume... (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Shadan7, vmibran, 0wn, Da Rock

                  ...that anyone who wishes the right to defend themselves and their family with the most effective tool MUST be a Republican.

                  That's insulting to Democrats, really. It's saying they're all cringing cowards who would let a home invader have their way with their spouse and children.

                  News: They're NOT.

                  Maybe some are. But none I know are. Every Democrat I know personally in reality is armed, because they live in the reality-based community, and in reality, Bad Things Happen.

                  "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

                  by Loboguara on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 09:07:11 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Only if they're not paying attention. (0+ / 0-)

      It can't be a reasonable view that there should be no limits on the carrying of arms by citizens.  Given that it has to be up for debate what those limits might be. The fact that the NRA actually tars anyone who is willing to limit the right to own arms with the same brush and is effective in getting its members to vote on that basis does not make the view a sensible view.

      If you want to argue on the merits, you are free to do so and you might even be right about the guns in question.  But the posting contains no information on the guns in question and why we shouldn't be concerned if they are freely available. As a poster above pointed out, most illegally used weapons were once legal but now stolen. So we need an argument on the merits, not a knee-jerk response.

      •  One of the most ludicrious arguments I see... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shadan7

        ...at times is that they ought to be controlled because they can be stolen from the homes of legal owners and misused.

        Great. Punish the law-abiding for the actions of criminals.

        By that logic, one could arrest the owner of a car if the car was stolen and used in a hit-and-run, or arrest someone who had prescription painkillers in their medicine chest that were stolen and caused someone they were illegally sold to to OD.

        When you blame the law-abiding for the action of a criminal, your society is seriously screwed up.

        "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

        by Loboguara on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 10:33:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  diffrence is cars... (0+ / 0-)

          ...and medicine are needed for today's life style and do not kill if used properly.  Guns are not needed and are killers as designed.

          We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

          by delver rootnose on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 12:11:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Tell Katrina survivors that. (0+ / 0-)

            You keep forgetting that.

            The police COULD NOT COME. What do you do if there's bad people outside and the good guy with a gun can't come to stop them? That is what the police are, remember?

            At that point, you have a choice...successfully defend your family, unsuccessfully try to defend your family, or give up.

            Firearms are simply the best solution we currently have to effect the former in such a situation.

            "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

            by Loboguara on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 06:12:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And they needed in particular those weapons that (0+ / 0-)

              the AWB would have banned? I don't believe most cops have those either.

              •  Actually, they do. (0+ / 0-)

                Most every police department in the country issues AR-15s to their cops, now. Most have one in the trunk.

                Why? Because they're extremely effective at short and medium range, reliable, accurate, and don't overpenetrate. They're modular, easy to switch parts on, and can be changed from caliber to caliber by simply changing the upper section and magazine, thus economical for users.

                Why should the police have the best defense tool and the law-abiding citizens be denied it?

                Because I can tell you from firsthand experience...most cops only shoot as many times at a range per year as they HAVE to to qualify. They're often not very good shots at all. Civilians who practice are much, much better.

                "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

                by Loboguara on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 11:48:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site