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  •  Vive le Quebec libre!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Predictor

    Or so said Charles deGaulle.

    Memo to James Carville: sit down and shut up! You too Begala!

    by Radiowalla on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 04:45:22 PM PDT

    •  That's rather insensitive (6+ / 0-)

      Do you have any idea how inflammatory the remark was? Or is today?

      What's your point? Would you like the PQ to win? If so why?

      •  It wasn't considered insentive to my (4+ / 0-)

        Partner who
        is Québécois and standing next to me reading this.
        His understanding of De Gaulle`s statement was that De Gaulle was addressing the Historic Oppression experienced by much of the Francophone Community in Québéc and the rest of Canada.

        He has related many unpleasant stories of Québéc`s history as have his family & friends whom I`ve met in Québéc and discussed the topic with.

        "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." Dalai Lama

        by Predictor on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 05:46:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I enjoy dkos but I avoid certain types (6+ / 0-)

          of comments on US politics. As a foreigner I might not get the nuance quite right.

          Canadians know this phrase all too well. And I was in Montreal that day, although as a youngster I wasn't aware of the true signifcance of the words at the time.

          I like my fellow TNA blogger's comments made earlier this year : Vive...

          "Vive le Quebec libre" (4.33 / 6)
          Was the slogan of the Quebec seperatist movement at the time. The general knew exactly what he was saying and doing. And that's why it was so offensive to many in the ROC.
          Yes, it was meddling in another country's internal affairs.

          There was a very immediate response during the general's address, which was from a balcony at Montreal's City Hall in Vieux Montreal.

          Pauline Vanier, the wife of the late Governor General Georges Vanier, the de facto Canadian head of state, was standing near de Gaulle during the address. She quickly pressed a scrap of paper bearing the simple reproach "1940" into de Gaulle's hand, in reference to the fall of France to the Nazis and Canada's considerable role and sacrifice in liberating it. Georges Vanier had passed away in March of that year - a heart attack while watching a hockey game - and his wife was fulfilling his duties.

          I should also mention that Georges Vanier was a WWI veteran (a VanDoo), lost his right leg in action in France in 1918. He susbequently began a diplomatic career and was the Canadian Minister to France when Paris was taken by the Nazis in 1940. Pauline was there with him at the time, so you can see the full relevance of her qucik action/response to de Gaulle.

          The rest of his state visit was immediately cancelled, Prime Minister Pearson, himself a war veteran and Nobel Prize winner, stating "Canadians do not need to be liberated".

          IIRC, de Gaulle also took a lot of heavy criticism from his own domestic press for the embarrasing breach of international protocol when he returned to France.

          I recall all of that quite vividly. I spent the summer of 1967, as I did a few other summers around that time, aboard a Great Lakes freighter. My grandpa was a ship's master (aka, the 'old man' to the crew, Captain to you landlubbers). We were sailing up river near Quebec City when the Colbert, the French naval ship which had transported de Gaulle on his state visit, and it's escorts sailed past us on their way back to France.

          SRC, the French language CBC, has video of the speech right here, if you're interested.

          The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

          by Frank Frink on 07/20/2006 02:29:55 PM EST

          Frank Frink is a Quebecker who currently lives in BC.

          How would you feel about a Canadian cheering for the South to Rise Again?

          •  Ok you're from Nova Scotia (4+ / 0-)

            so it is all in the family then.

          •  The response from my Partner is: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            fiddlingnero

            The Quéebécois were treated as badly by the British Crown (Which this Country Divorced itself from,btw) as the Slaves were treated in the South, so, your comment is only ironically analagous, as it would more likely be an African-American rooting for the liberation of Québéc.

            My take: He doesn`t know Our history well enough to draw that analogy, and I wouldn`t do so, but if you think the Québécois weren`t poorly treated, I suggest you check out the history from non-Anglophone Québécois (and there are many of them).
            As there are many Anglophone Québécois who would agree with what you posted versus Francophone Québécois who would seriously disagree with Mr.Frink.

            And, I`d like to mention that my Mother lived in Hamilton, Ontario while her father, my Grandfather was fighting the Nazi`s in WWII in Great Britain.

            Also, Mr. Frink`s reference to ROC= Rest of Canada.
            The Québécois also fought in both WWI & WWII for the Dominion.

            "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." Dalai Lama

            by Predictor on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 06:45:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  ??? comparing discriminations??? (6+ / 0-)

              Predictor,

              I understand these are some emotional issues, but comparing the treatment of Quebecois post-Conquest to American slaves is really problematic. Marriages made illegal, girls repeatedly raped, children sold away, religion forcibly changed, one's entire life and death under the power of master? The Quebec Act alone invalidates those claims.

              That's not to deny plenty of discrimination, but a better (albeit still rough) analogy might be the discrimination faced by free blacks under Jim Crow, or Irish Catholics under British rule. Both very, very bad indeed, but not the same as the institutionalized centuries-long brutality of race-based slavery.

              But the larger issue is about what the phrase "Vivre le Quebec libre" means. It was understood as a separatist comment at the time, whether de Gaulle meant that or not.  He provoked a diplomatic incident at the time;  the PM went on tv to say the remarks were "unacceptable to the Canadian people," and Trudeau (the minister of Justice) asked rhetorically what would happen if a Canadian politician said "Brittany for the Bretons!"
              See:
              http://archives.cbc.ca/...

              In 2007, at 40 years past, we might well think of the phrase as harmless, and (as your partner does) simply invoking Quebecois civil rights. But the phrase is also associated with separatism, and (therefore) with the breakup of Canada (unless you buy into the notion that soveriegnty-association isn't really a breakup, but that's another discussion.) By saying "Vive le Quebec libre" you are also saying (on some level) "I support the breakup of Canada." You might not actually mean that, but at least you should be aware it can be taken that way.

              For an American to say it is much as it might be for a well-meaning Canadian to  fly the Confederate Navy Jack in Georgia. That Canadian might only be trying to support Southern pride,the aura of rebelliousness,  or heck, s/he might just love the Dukes of Hazzard! And S/he could argue that many Americans understand the flag in that harmess way, just as your partner understands the phrase "Vive le Quebec libre" to be positive. But other Americans might be deeply offended, and it would be well for the Canadian to understand why.  Similarly, I can understand why Paul2port wants Americans to know that "Vive le Quebec libre" has some negative connotations for some Canadians.

            •  Your partner said that? (3+ / 0-)

              The Quéebécois were treated as badly by the British Crown (Which this Country Divorced itself from,btw) as the Slaves were treated in the South

              .

              Bull puckey.

              They may been badly treatly, buit like Southern 'slaves'?

              Double bull-pucky.

              Maybe your Quebecois partner needs to learn a bit more about 'Slavery'.

              Man, I find that completely offensive. I'm a 14th generation Frenc-Canadian and nobody in family was ever remotely treated like slaves in the south.

              This is total bullshit and really pisses me off.

              Understand that you don't agree, but wow.. wow.

              The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

              by FrankFrink on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 08:34:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I should never type (5+ / 0-)

                on emotion, especially in very dim light.

                But I'm really, truly tired of the whole 'oppression' shtick. It's close to Quebec self-flagellation now, to my mind. We do almost as much nowadays to hold ourselves back than the Anglos ever did.

                The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

                by FrankFrink on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 08:53:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Sorry I didn't see this comment until now (4+ / 0-)

                As I stated in a post to alpha, he retracted that statement re: U.S. slavery, but feels very emotionally bound to it based on what he saw of 36 years living there.
                Your experience was obviously better than his, as an Orphan and later destitute in Villé Québéc with no food on the table. And no I'm not exaggerating. He was denied jobs because of his ethnic background, made to sit in the "back of the bus" literally, because he wasn't an Anglophone.
                No, he wasn't in chains, just strapped to a chair in an Orphanage in Villé Québéc & abused.

                I'm glad your experience was much different.

                Ya'll have a nice network too. ;-)

                "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." Dalai Lama

                by Predictor on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 08:57:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, we weren't rich (5+ / 0-)

                  either, not even close.

                  Pointe St-Charles wasn't exactly an affluent neighbourhood - Balconville.

                  Neither is La Bas-Fleuve du St-Laurent.

                  Expereicnes differ, but.... that whole 'White Niggers of America' bit was and is just a wee bit over the top.

                  The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

                  by FrankFrink on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 09:03:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Look, his comparison of African-americans (4+ / 0-)

                    experience in the U.S. would fit the timeperiod pre-1964 U.S. civil Rights Act, and that should of been how the original comment was framed, not the abject Slavery period. In other words, more like how African-Americans were treated in the first part of the 1900's post abolition until Québéc and its citizens received more automony and cultural revolution of the 60`s occurred(as it did here in the U.S.)

                    So, Please don`t anyone Troll Rate Frank Frink for his comment, as it is a regular reference that has been used in Québéc.

                    And please no lectures on the U.S. and African-americans, I'm one of those who was fighting in the streets for Civil Rights in this Country starting in the early 60's.
                    I was giving, and I stated I was giving a 3rd Party's perspective that I stated I did not feel comfortable with.
                    However, he had related the "back of the bus" story to me years ago and I feel there is much substance to how  certain classes of Québécois were treated. It should not be hidden or covered-up.

                    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." Dalai Lama

                    by Predictor on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 09:23:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  does he blog? (6+ / 0-)

                  If your partner has never written about his experiences, I should hope he would.(I'm a historian by trade. Can't help wanting to see this kind of thing set down for others to understand. )

                  You might enjoy reading The Next Agenda, btw. It's a Canadian political blog much like this one (and where I got to know several of the commentators here.) A good way to get your Canadian political "fix," in my experience.

            •  Ah, mais oui. It's The Pierre Vallières the (3+ / 0-)

              He was one of the founders and leaders of the FLQ.

              I actually still own a copy of that book.

              The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

              by FrankFrink on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 08:59:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Hey Predictor your partner's team is in third! (3+ / 0-)

          And yeah I know the Leafs aren't going to make the playoffs.

          I looked at your profile.

          Care to make a prediction?

          •  Are you Kidding, I'll make predictions for (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FrankFrink, aphra behn, paul2port

            our races (and I'm pretty damned good) but I'll pass on the Québéc predictions because I totally agree with the Diarist:

            Quebec politics is tougher than "Chinese algebra"

            "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." Dalai Lama

            by Predictor on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 06:51:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Well, I'm Quebecois (5+ / 0-)

          Family has been there since 1660, and yes while a lot of Quebec history does show an 'oppresive' nature towards French-canadians a lot of that was aided and perpetuated by the Catholic Church. Quebec was a de facto theocracy for many years.

          de Gaule wasn't speaking to oppression, he was deliberaltely meddling in Canadian affairs in the year of Canada's centennial. De Gaulle may have been many things but he was not politcally stupid. he knew exactly what he was saying and doing.

          The 'oppressed' card has been way overplayed. Tiem to put it back in the deck. This is now the 21st century, not the 19th or the early 20th. French-Canadians, and I'm one of them, are today 'oppressed' in what manner?

          The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

          by FrankFrink on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 08:30:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, I was just being flip. (5+ / 0-)

        Yes, I know how inflammatory the remark was.
        I was in France when DeGaulle said it and I know full well how unhappy the French people were about their dear leader making a complete "con" of himself.

        No, I don't want the PQ to win because I have a fondness for Canada as it is.  In fact, I was in Ontario just  last week. I have family in Canada and they are all against separation.

        Sorry if I offended you.  

        Memo to James Carville: sit down and shut up! You too Begala!

        by Radiowalla on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 08:15:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  As soemone who grew up and lived (4+ / 0-)

      there during that time as well as the terrorist activties of the FLQ and La Crise D'Octobre, yes it is offensive. (and btw - I'm a federalist French-Canadian. Family in Quebec since 1660).

      De Gaulle, as President of France, interferring in doemstic Canadian affairs. That's offensive.

      What would be your reaction to a foreign leader screwing around in US domestic affairs? Or advocate that some area of the United States leaver the Union?

      It's not enough for me to troll rate it but I can't recommend either.

      It is very insensitive. You should have thought it through a bit more.

      The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

      by FrankFrink on Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 08:23:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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