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View Diary: On the impossibility of Palestinian recognition of the State of Israel (307 comments)

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  •  Very Interesting (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    another American, Keith Moon, zemblan

    Could the governing body of the Palestinian Authority recognize Israel then?  

    i was france ave when they came out dancing. i was lyndale south. i was kicking it with cousins.

    by Mia Dolan on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 08:08:00 PM PDT

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    •  no.... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      npbeachfun

      ...it would be completely without any legal meaning since palestine is not a state.  

      and, even if an 'exception' was carved out of international law just for israel again what exactly would they be recognizing? what version of israel's borders? everything but gaza and the isolated defiled cities/cantons on the west bank?

      •  Legal meaning (3+ / 0-)

        What is at issue here is not some world legal body determining whether there is legal meaning to Palestinian declarations.   Rather, what is at issue is what it will take to get Israel to engage in real negotiations.  Israel is surely acutely aware of the legal meaning (or lack thereof) of recognition by the Palestinians, but wants it anyway.  Israel wants the Palestinians to recognize that Israel has a right to exist, even if the borders are not defined.  As was explained elsewhere on this thread, Egypt recognized Israel years before all those types of Issues were finalized.  Its not much to ask, and the technical justification you set forth in your diary is not a legitimate excuse.  

        i was france ave when they came out dancing. i was lyndale south. i was kicking it with cousins.

        by Mia Dolan on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 08:47:05 PM PDT

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        •  i personally wouldn't trust... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hatu, npbeachfun

          ....israel as far as i could throw them.

          Israel wants the Palestinians to recognize that Israel has a right to exist, even if the borders are not defined.

          recognition of a nebulous country who has an active program of putting palestinians essentially into isolated prisons in the west bank would not be advisable.  

          de facto existence, if israel defines what it is and what it isn't, maybe...but, to in any way leave the impression that israel has a green light to proceed with their ethnic-cleansing project, not so much...

          •  Well (4+ / 0-)

            If you (and the Palestinans, or at least Hamas) won't trust Israel enough to even recognize its right to exist, how can you expect Israel to negotiate?   This is a difficult situation, and a lasting solution is going to take compromise on both sides.  But there is no "give" in your position at all.  

            As a lawyer I settle dozens of civil cases every year, and most involve one side paying more than it thinks the case is worth, and the other side taking less than it thinks it should get.  When your opening position is "fuck you"  you won't get too far.  You have to give Israel something to work with.  Like in Jerry Maguire: "Help me to help you."  

            i was france ave when they came out dancing. i was lyndale south. i was kicking it with cousins.

            by Mia Dolan on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 09:21:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  recognition... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              npbeachfun

              ...and a 'right to exist' are different concepts, and the latter has absolutely no precedent in international law. if israel wants to create a unique legal status for the way a group of people see it, i am not sure what it would actually mean.

              the two concepts are not interchangeable; the former is a defined process between two states, or a state recognizing a government in exile, as i state at the beginning of the diary.

              so, recognition is a non-starter, as it is defined in international law, under the circumstances as they exist. as for the other, it would depend on what it actually means, and what the impact of saying 'x has a right to exist' on the right of the palestinians to exist, and in what form that right takes on after it is said.

              to say 'x has a right to exist' and what they have been doing for the past sixty years is wonderful is absurd to admit. 'x exists' seems rather silly to say...  to say 'x has a right to exist, but, it has to stop the bullshit' would probably be not what israel wants to hear, no?

              •  OK (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                shpilk, another American, Eric S

                The quartet principles, which were drafted knowing full well what Palestine was capable of doing under international law, require the recognition of Israel.  It may be a unique legal status they are asking for - but that is the condition.  Does that make sense?  The terms were drafted with the knowlege of the international law and the difference between recognition and the right to exist you set forth in your comment.  You are not telling Israel and the Palestinians something they don't know, yet this condition is still out there.  

                I think before you get around to talking about stopping the bullshit (and I do acknowledge plenty of bullshit by Israel) Israel must be acknowledged.  I do not think that is an unreasonable requirement for negotiation - you really cannot negotiate if you do not acknowledge the other side.

                I think many, if not most, Israelis want a fair solution for the Palestinians.  But their own security trumps their concerns about the plight of the Palestinians.  Ghandi and Mandela shamed their occupiers and empowered those who wanted peace and justice.  There is no Ghandi or Mandela in Palestine.  Instead we have Hamas in power and suicide bombers blowing things up - and for the Israeli people that justifies the harsh tactics of Israel and trumps the concerns of those who want justice for Palestine.   That is the first obstacle that must be removed.  Get Hamas to acknowledge Israel and renounce violence and you can take the security issue out of it.  Only then will Israel have to deal with the shame of the abuses of the occupation.  Only then will the peace-loving Israelis speak up and make their voices heard.

                i was france ave when they came out dancing. i was lyndale south. i was kicking it with cousins.

                by Mia Dolan on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 10:24:19 PM PDT

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          •  This is your recipe for peace? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            shpilk

            All you want is Israeli submission.  

            Hopeless typist, poor speller, miserable proofreader, not stupid. And I neglected to mention, a faulty memory.

            by Eric S on Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 10:14:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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