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View Diary: Stem Cell Bill Passes. Not Veto-Proof. Sununu is Toast. (93 comments)

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  •  surprise, surprise (17+ / 0-)

    casey kills stem cell research. guess his conscience matters more than the lives of the millions of americans who won't be able to use that research. hope he's happy with himself, now that those embryos will be tossed into the trash, rather than be put to use saving lives.

    surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

    by wu ming on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:23:17 PM PDT

    •  It's sickening (7+ / 0-)

      that these guys call themselves "pro-life."

      •  Well to get embryonic stem cells (0+ / 0-)

        you have to kill what Catholics consider to be a human life. They're not just eggs to be broken to make a nice omelet.

        Speaking of which, I've never heard the dirty little secret of embryonic stem cell research whispered around this site. If you want to know, here it is:

        It hasn't produced any results. All we've done so far is throw money at it and do experiments on mice.

        The real miracles are in adult stem cell research, since it's actually being used to, you know, cure people and stuff.

        tobyMac attack!

        •  Human life (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chigh

          that Catholics do not bother to have baptized.  Hmmm, why is that?  Does the Catholic hierarchy not care for the souls of those who have original sin?

          •  Baptizing embryos? WTF (0+ / 0-)

            Uhh, how would you even do that?

            And are you actually equating baptizing someone with caring about them? Catholics are supposed to care about everyone, regardless of their baptism. A human life is a human life, and therefore sacred and precious, and not to be used carelessly and discarded.

            Oh, and by the way, you're dodging my main point. So how do you feel about adult stem cell research?

            tobyMac attack!

            •  You wouldn't (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CJB, chigh

              the point I was making is that IF Catholics view a developing embryo as a human life you would think that there would be concern about the soul of that human.  Yet even later term miscarriages where the fetus is more developed you will not see baptisms being performed.  So either you have a human life with the requisite original sin AND the need for baptism or you do not.

              And while we are on the subject of Catholicism, it is not necessarily true that Catholics believe that the embryo is a human life.  That is what the hierarchy has decreed but not necessarily what all Catholics believe.

              I wasn't dodging your point.  I do not feel I know enough about stem cell research to agree or disagree.  I accepted what you wrote as your opinion.  

              •  Use Google then (0+ / 0-)

                And yeah, I believe that an embryo is a human life. It has its own unique set of DNA, it's alive... what else do you need to know?

                Remember, Google is your friend.

                tobyMac attack!

                •  I may (0+ / 0-)

                  if I wish to learn more about the subject.  So the embryo is a human life but you question how and why one should treat it as such in all aspects of the Catholic faith.  

                  Perahps you'll want to look up Thomas Aquinas and Augustine to learn about how they viewed fetuses and human life.

                  •  Lazy (0+ / 0-)

                    C'mon, it takes like thirty seconds. Type in "adult stem cell research" and see what you come up with.

                    Or are you afraid of what you will find? Hmmmm?

                    Off to Google Aquinas and Augustine... remember, Google is your friend.

                    tobyMac attack!

                    •  I try not to (0+ / 0-)

                      form such concrete opinions in 30 seconds. I just don't see the issue as being an either/or proposition.  If you say there is great success with adult stem cell research that, for now, is good enough for me.  But I do not choose to negate the potential that is supported by many in the scientific community that embryonic stem cell research can be beneficial as well.  But then again I do not believe the embryo is a human life.

            •  You didn't ask me, but I'll answer: (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              newfie, NYPopulist

              Adult stem cell research is great!  So is embryonic stem cell research, since it's from embryos left over from fertility therapy.  Embryos that would otherwise be thrown in the garbage. Is that a better outcome for you?

              It's official, James Inhofe is a dumbass.

              by CJB on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 07:41:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Alright troll, here you go (0+ / 0-)

          You Catholics are also the same ones who haven't passed any laws that prohibit embryos being thrown in the trash - if you care so much about these embryos, you had 12 years to pass some laws.

          Lets weigh our options:

          1.  Simply throw out the unwanted (because of research restrictions) embryos.
          1.  Take the embryos that have been designated for research by their parent and use them to potentially save lives.

          Take your pick, Catholic.

          You'll also notice that I said that the research could potentially save lives.  Yes, it's true that there have been few results, but how could there be with so many governmental restrictions!?  C'mon, it's time you got a grip on reality.  There are literally thousands of scientists screaming for funding and saying that these cells can, perhaps, cure diseases.  They have shown promise.  Is it so much to ask to give people who are suffering with Parkinsons, Cancer, Diabetes, and paralysis some damn hope?

          •  Well sorry I pissed you off, jeez (0+ / 1-)
            Recommended by:
            Hidden by:
            NYPopulist

            Yes, it is too much to ask to give suffering people some hope, because it is false hope.

            My point is, why don't we just give all of our funding to adult stem cell research, since it is working so well and doesn't have any nasty moral arguments attached.

            As it is, this is like developing a car that will run on dirt. Because hey, there's a lot of dirt out there available to us, we should use it!

            Except, of course, that the car doesn't work. It's just a waste of money.

            tobyMac attack!

            •  Yes, you did piss me off (0+ / 0-)

              I certainly don't wish it upon you, but perhaps if you ever lose a loved one to a disease that scientists say has potential to be cured by embryonic stem-cell research you'll realize it's more than just "false hope."

              Take a look at a damn science journal and you'll see that there is near-unanimous sentiment among the scientific community that embryonic stem-cell research has the potential to cure cancer, Parkinsons, diabetes, and more.  Adult stem-cells are good, but they are limited!

              God, you people make me sick talking about "wasting money" on scientific research.  This is more than just dollars and cents we're dealing with.

              •  Who is "us people"? (0+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Hidden by:
                NYPopulist

                The reality-based community? Sorry to piss you off yet again, as I suspect I have just done, but I have to disagree with you.

                Yeah, this is more than dollars and cents we're dealing with all right. It's billions of dollars we're dealing with, and as far as I can tell it's being wasted.

                My grandfather died of heart disease. (I think that counts as one of those debilitatin diseases.) In one study, subjects with dead heart tissue due to heart attacks were partially healed using the patients' own stem cells.

                Meanwhile, I haven't heard about any study that has shown that embryonic stem cells could do the same thing.

                Sure adult stem cells are limited. But recent research suggests they are more plastic (changeable) than was previously thought. A bone marrow stem cell was induced to become a nerve cell in one study I read about. That's some pretty far-reaching limits.

                You can conduct all the embryonic research you want, but I think I'll take my chances with the adult stem cells.

                tobyMac attack!

                •  How about this (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm done arguing with you, but how about this for a proposition: I'll pay taxes to fund embryonic stem-cell research, and if any cures are found, you don't use them?  OK?

                  Goodnight.

                  •  You blinked (0+ / 1-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Hidden by:
                    NYPopulist

                    That might be an acceptable compromise, provided that I also donate to adult stem-cell research, and you don't use any cures from there. We'll see who gets better in short order.

                    Nighty night, don't let the wingnuts bite!

                    tobyMac attack!

                    •  What are you, four years old? (0+ / 0-)

                      Also, if you scroll just a few comments up, you'll notice I'm in full support of adult stem cells.  You're as dumb as a rock.  Here's a troll rate for you to sleep on.

                      •  Hooray for insomnia! (0+ / 1-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Hidden by:
                        NYPopulist

                        And here I thought you were actually going to follow up. Heh, silly me.

                        Ah well, guess I'll just have to let you use the adult stem cell cures, since you support them and all. Or say that they're "good," anyway. Wow, what a ringing endorsement.

                        BTW, retaliatory troll-rating is Not Allowed. Sorry, but them's the rules.

                        tobyMac attack!

                        •  Haha (0+ / 0-)

                          last check, trolls themselves weren't allowed, so shove off.

                          How about you sent me an email - mine is in my profile - and I'll be glad to send you study after study of promising stem-cell research.  Ball's in your court.  Or, as you suggest, you can just "Google" it.

                          Now, I have WORK to go to.  I'll expect an email when pre-school lets out later this afternoon.

    •  That's the thing (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cosette, jimreyn

      If I were an embryo and was going to be tossed in the trash, I would hope someone would respect me enough to culture me into some pancreatic cells, or whatever.  Maybe it would not be as good a life as being a fully-formed, conscious human being, but I'd prefer to be circulating in someone else's system to permanent extinction.  
       
      I don't get the pro-life thing.  Somehow, this reminds me of the whole canned-hunt spectacle that seems to be such a theme of Republican office holders.  Tossing out embryos instead of using them to cure disease somehow seems as disrespectful and downright cruel as shooting a few hundred frightened quail on some game farm somewhere.  

      In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ...Thomas Jefferson

      by ivorybill on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:41:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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