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View Diary: DNC hires RIAA shill (267 comments)

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  •  I couldn't agree more. (0+ / 0-)

    As a good progressive, I hate all those thousands and thousands of people an their damned demon wives and children who are employed by those major labels who bust their asses to elevate good music to the world.

    Screw them all.

    I hate the goddamn RIAA for attempting to stop me from stealing music. I'm American.  I can steal whatever I want.  I want everything free, and we as good Goddamn progressives must show our best communist fronts and get together and kill every one of those East Asian dogs that sniff out bootleg CD's.

    We must rise up as a freeloading peoples and take what is rightfully ours, and bankrupt every one of these labels that the RIAA "protects."

    Pitchforks all!  

    Give me a goddamn break.  Markos and the rest of these bandwagon apologists are a bunch of whining children angry that mommy won't give them an allowance for sitting on their asses and playing video games.

    Boing Boing is a socialist shill and everyone who subscribes to an ideology defending the right of people to steal from artists has jumped on the wrong bandwagon.  

    This is totally outside the mainstream, and only sun-less bloggers and script kiddie hackers take pleasure in holding this organization up as worse than Haliburton.  

    Fuck you Markos, Boing Boing, and anti-American way socialist mob rule scum.  The rest of you are on the wrong bandwagon if you are buying into this crap.  You want to keep your artists shackled in the slave quarters begging for dimes as their teeth rot and they have no resource to get their kids' cancer worked on?  

    Just as long as you can get your free shit?  

    Then you suck and you splinter the progressives into the ultra communist and the american way camps and you are not welcome in my house any more than Rove.  

    And, don't give me the "but, the labels are making the money" because that is utter shit.  I represent these artists, brothers and sisters, and without these labels (which are basically banks stupid enough to invest in such a prospective product) the artists would not be able to tour profitably which is where they make their money.

    Markos lost me totally today.  Fucking socialist shill.  And that's not my opinion . . . blah blah blah lookie at my angry mob link justifying my bullshit insult . . . blah blah.

    Before you get itchy with the troll finger, best see my history.  No troll here.  My attitude is just a mirror of Markos' inflammatory and juvenile rant.

    Awwww.  This probably means I don't get an invite to your next shin dig, Kos?  I'll just have to hang out with my broke-ass musician friends who don't fit into your grand scheme.  You're an ex-grunt and don't know shit one about music or the industry that supports it.  You have lost every ounce of respect I ever had for you.

    PROGRESSIVE DOES NOT EQUAL SOCIALIST AND NOT EVERYONE HERE IS A THIEF COMPLICIT IN THE DAMNING OF THIS ORGANIZATION THAT PROTECTS ARTISTS AND THUS ART.

    Rant complete.

    "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

    by Back in the Cave on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 07:47:10 PM PDT

    •  This is great comedy (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rogun, alizard, CenterLeft

      Please, stop.

      It's uncomfortable to laugh this hard...oh man.

      Socialist shill?

      From the industry kept alive by direct government intervetion in the market (DMCA laws)?

      I've got to wipe my eyes...too funny...

      •  Stewart can explain to everyone (0+ / 0-)

        How 9 out of 10 artists whose albums are sold to Labels for a nice profit get dropped because even with all that help, it's just that no one really liked their stuff.

        He can also tell you how those artists are all bitter because they spent all their money and still have to pay it back . . . because it was a loan against sales their product couldn't muster.

        They are failures who are angry that they can't get their music back to offer up because they haven't paid back their debt.  

        He'll tell you how at every turn, he takes a smoke break from his new day job to log in and perpetuate a myth of the evil industry that did him wrong and how it should be taken down with bulldozers, right, Stewart?

        What he won't tell you is that it's his tears he's wiping from his eyes.  Right, Stewart?  Lie about it if you want to, but we both know.

        "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

        by Back in the Cave on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 12:36:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  How does it feel... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alizard, CenterLeft

      ...to have your head up your ass and your foot in your mouth at the same time? It must be awkward and embarrassing, huh?

      Go back to your cave, troll. Indeed. Progressive is a vague political label. You seem to be very fascist if you ask me.
      Peer-to-peer file sharing isn't stealing. There's a big world of difference between file sharing and piracy. The people have the right to enjoy any damn work of art they please and not have to waste their money just to make a corporate monopoly like the RIAA happy.
      All a piece of shit like you cares about is money and privilege. Please leave DailyKos! We don't need a hypocrite like you wasting our space.

      •  Yawn (0+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Hidden by:
        alizard

        This is not your space, either, dickweed.  Community space, and not everyone has to agree with your free shit for all at the expense of the artists attitude.  Foot up my mouth indeed.  I've been here as a TU twice as long as you, so if anyone needs take a hike, it will be you.

        And, it's not to make the RIAA happy.  Like ASCAP and other performing rights organizations, the RIAA protects the rights of artists and the industry that pours money into the support of thousands and thousands of jobs that maintain it all.  I don't care about privilege.  I care about paying my bills, just as I care for those thousands and thousands of people who work in the biz who need to pay for theirs.  What you say is pure shit, selfish, communist, and pathetic.

        Troll, my ass.  Try again, you insulting piece of garbage.  Calling me a fascist because I won't sit for the communist ideal you preach just shows what a bunch of unrealistic children you are.  

        And to link an EFF shill site whose audience is full of shit enough to insinuate the the RIAA is even in the same class as Haliburton . . . Pull your foot out of your mouth and tell me how the shit you've been wading through tastes.

        "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

        by Back in the Cave on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 05:03:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So you say? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          alizard

          So much spite, and you're supposed to be liberal? You love to use the word "shill" a lot, too. I'm sorry to hear that all of your beloved artists can only survive with the huge royalties they get from a monopoly like the RIAA. Protecting artists? That's fucking hilarious!
          The RIAA takes advantage of artists more than anything else and, with government intervention, forces people to buy CDs. You know what? Fuck your beloved celebrities and big corporations. They can find other ways to pay the bills.
          To be fair, I find genuine piracy wrong. When it involves taking credit for another person's work or making personal profits off of a company's products, then that's wrong. I agree.
          However, friends sharing with friends and/or making their own CDs for their private use with songs they downloaded isn't wrong. I'm pretty sure people are still buying CDs so Lars Ulrich won't starve to death... yeah fucking right! XD
          Anyway, I checked out your account and see that you're not a troll or a fascist. So for those remarks I'll admit that I was out of line and I'm sorry.
          On the other hand, you are indeed a limo liberal and still an asshole and a hypocrite.
          Here's a nice way to make my point in an enjoyable, less belligerent way:

          http://youtube.com/...

          As you can see, the link is from Youtube and the artist is Weird Al. I just provided the link! :)

          You're right, by the way, about DailyKos being OUR space! Isn't it nice to share? Well, maybe not for you.

          •  I use shill (0+ / 0-)

            liberally to poke at Markos' BS use of it.

            And, what I think of myself has nothing to do with this basic issue of right and wrong.  If liberal to you means left socialist, then I am not liberal.  I am American and I have been very active in Dem politics for a long time.  

            To your claim that this is an issue concerning backing up your collection, BS.  

            I don't care if you copy your own collection, and neither do attorneys at the RIAA.  But, if you distribute what you copy, for profit or not, you're hurting someone by passing along a product that is not yours to give.  Yes, it is that simple.

            If you just want someone to share a song you found, shit, everything streams nowadays.  Send a link.  Thought of that?  Think of streaming like the watermark on software you're too criminal to It's what you do with the copies.  Distribution of cocaine can be passing it out to everyone at a party.  You don't have to sell it to graduate to felony.  

            And, the angry little pissant that told me to get off "our" site was childish.  You speak gibberish in response to my wordage.  

            And the TU abuse, again, YAWN.  

            Bottom line, we disagree.  I respect what the RIAA has done and lament at how the issues that surround the introduction of this new format have played out parallel to anti-GOP anti-bush fervor.  It is unfortunate.  You'll be hard pressed to find more than a hand full of people in music in either NY or LA who are anything but energetically liberal.

            I'm bored with this. You're greedy and wrong, and the liberal of which you speak is far left of the real progressive movement, which is about utilizing our gifts and hard work to achieve our dreams living for the betterment of society.

            Dispute that.

            "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

            by Back in the Cave on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 10:54:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Awww, did I bore you? (0+ / 0-)

              Too bad! I'm calling out your hypocrisy. Greedy? I already told you I don't profit off of anything companies or artists make. That sounds more like you: profitting off of information so a privileged few can live large. What the fuck is liberal about that?
              If your beloved celebrities want to make money, which they have plenty of, they can do concerts and tours.
              Utilizing our gifts? It's more like giving corporations dominion over our culture. Ever heard of the "culture industry"? It's sad that our dreams have to be connected with Corporate America, which has commoditized our lives so much.
              Don't give me your shallow, spineless garbage about how much you care about the betterment of society when you don't mean it. Madison Avenue and Hollywood have you ringed around their diamond studded fingers. You're just as bad as the Republicans. Have you ever watched MTV's Cribs? Those multi-millionaire recording artists sure are suffering because people want to share their mass produced music for free. The same goes for other media.
              People will pay for the initial products, of course. If these products are hard to find, then collectors will surely scramble over them.
              My point: it's too bad that people like you can only appreciate creative works based on their money-value and that you care more about how much money the corporations make than anything else.
              Yes, there's a few people that genuinely pirate the hard work of artists. Those jerks that engage in piracy are just like you: profit above people.
              You still haven't addressed the fact that the RIAA is a monopoly that strong arms musicians into selling their music under their name. The RIAA dominates the American music industry. It doens't appreciate creativity or music at all!
              Once again, it's seems like you only care if the RIAA is collecting royalties, not if our society has freedom of information and love for creativity for its own sake divorced of the market.

              •  Four things: (0+ / 0-)

                One: You pompus little shit, you have absolutely no right to assume anything about my intentions for doing what I do.  I have endured great hardship and have undertaken GREAT risk to champion art - to champion artists.  Motherfucker calling me a hypocrite?  You aren't worthy of wiping my ass.

                Two:  You don't have even an idiot's understanding of  what the RIAA even does.  Go back and sample through the posts. Jesus.  Pretty much every label is a member of this organization - an organization that enforces existing laws to protect the rights of its members.  RIAA Label is about as accurate as Liberal Media.  

                Three: Who lives fat?  There is a lot of money, but you are disillusioned and misinformed if you think it is consolidated around a few.  I pull 20 points.  But, you know what?  That's my artists funding the lean fighting team I have to offer him my service.  (And, my service, regardless of your comprehension, is a vital and difficult to obtain).  And, the musicians?  You think they are getting fat?  Comfortable, but that's not a crime, Robbin Hood. Who do you think pays their band?  Their road crew?  Jesus, you are warped and angry, which brings me to point two:

                Finally: Dems aren't anti-capitalist wingers.  You have so described yourself as such.  Not a Dem, you are a 100K+ UID green freeping anarchist troll.  

                Madison Avenue and Hollywood have you ringed around their diamond studded fingers. You're just as bad as the Republicans.

                Yeah.  Rich. The same kind of anarchist as the rest of the anti-Capitalist, anti-American, anti-Democrat scum who insist on stealing intellectual property even knowing it is a crime because there are victims.  

                GO.EAT.SHIT.

                "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

                by Back in the Cave on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 12:21:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You've got to be kidding me. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Progressive Moderate

                  1)Pompus? Ha! Look at your own responses! You ride the backs of people who actually have talent and all you care about is a fucking paycheck! And yet you act as though you speak for the art world in general and you produce none of your own! Get over yourself.

                  2)The RIAA is a trade group. 90% of recorded music is made and distributed by the member companies of the RIAA. They also collect royalties and administer licenses. They represent the recording industry. I know that.
                  Did I mention that P2P file-sharing is what you would call a disruptive technology? Of course the RIAA hates it because it deprives its member corporations of sales. In particular, the "Big Four" (EMI, Sony-BMG, Universal Music and Warner) pretty much dominate the sales of music CDs and are all RIAA members. The musicians can make money without these CD sales or these companies if they wanted to.
                  Basically, the RIAA has a monopoly on music distribution. It's not so much about protecting the musicians, who it takes advantage of, but making money off of CDs. It doesn't appreciate creative works, but lives to make money. It doesn't want the cash cows to run dry.

                  3)The musicians that win the heart of the RIAA live fat, indeed. Any struggling musicians that are lapped up by they companies will more or less live large too. Modern music in general is so mass produced and centalized nowadays. Here in Olympia, a lot of musicians make money by holding concerts or shows. Nothing to it!
                  I'm sure you work hard to make money off of someone else's talent. It's fun to exploit people, huh? No wonder you love the RIAA.

                  4)Have you ever heard of a Creative Commons? Perhaps not. Or the free culture movement? Probably not that either. I'm sure you find public education and universal health appalling since, you know, companies aren't making money. God forbid people get free education and health care! Likewise, it's the end of the world if information is free! Yes, music is information.
                  I already explained to you that I know the differece between piracy and filesharing. They're two different things. Piracy means you make a profit off of another person's work or take credit for their work. Most of us who use P2P filesharing aren't doing either of those things.
                  Yes, my sharing the song "Yellow Submarine" with my friends deprives Ringo and Paul of royalties. But inversely, my friends and I aren't making any money either. Isn't it nice that we can share a song we like and no one gets hurt? At least we can appreciate the artistic value of "Yellow Submarine" rather than getting anal over who makes or loses money. Ringo and Paul can rest assured that people still love their music! Sure, the RIAA loses money but that's all they care about.

                  No, I'm not a Dem. I haven't been a Dem for years. I'm disgusted with how they've become Republican-Lite and have been cowardly and incompetent in the face of Republican opposition. They fold like a card table every time the conservative movement attempts to paint them as traitors or otherwise. People like you have shown me how shallow and morally bankrupt the Democratic Party has become.

                  Have you ever heard the quote "Property is theft."? Think about it.

                  I already told you that I'm sorry for calling you a troll. I can promise you I'm no troll. I'm here to discuss politics with like minded, genuinely progressive people. You're not one of them.

                  Anti-American? It's hard not to be when you see how backwards and fucked-up this nation has become. I used to believe in this country, but with all the lies, corruption, war and our ever-so tainted history it's hard to love this country at all.

                  I am indeed anti-capitalist and I have no qualms about it. It's too bad that you believe property rights are more important than human rights. Why the fuck do you even claim to be progressive? You're more center-right than anything else. You must be one of those DLC hacks.

                  Unlike you, I respect the right artists have to produce whatever they want without fear of censorship. Likewise, I support their right to be creative without interference by the market. I support their right not to be taken advantage of by creeps like you.

                  My political sentiments are very close to anarchism. I'm a member of the Green Party of South Puget Sound, Olympia Movement for Justice and Peace, and Olympia Fellowship of Reconciliation. Unlike you, I do believe in freedom from both the government and market.

                  I'll pass your offer to eat shit because I've had my fill with you.

        •  EFF shill site? (0+ / 0-)

          I'd say that's something to be proud of.

          They protect online freedom of speech, even for wannabe scumbags like you.

          Troll rating because your only purpose here is to disrupt.

          If you want "freedom of speech" unrestricted by decency, common sense, or contradiction, why don't you get your employers to buy you a blog of your very own where you can lie to your heart's content.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 05:54:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good man! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            alizard

            I'm with you alizard. Perhaps "Back in the Cave" hasn't heard of the free culture movement or the free software movement, huh? Of course he hasn't!
            It's funny that "Back in the Cave" hates the EFF so much. Looks like money is more important to him than freedom.

            •  no need to insult "Back to the Cave" (0+ / 0-)

              unnecessarily. I'm sure he knows of the Open Source movement, and considers it a "Communist plot" against the major Bush campaign contributor we know as Microsoft Corporation.

              And I suspect strongly that part of his level of anger and aggression is based on an honest and sincere attempt to use Vista on his home workstation because he feels it's his obligation to "The American Way" to do so.

              I don't feel that kind of anger and aggression over computing, probably because my computer maintenance needs take about 15 minutes a week. I use Debian (stable), using Windows in a VM for legacy software. Whether or not Linux is a "communist conspiracy", it's certainly made my computing life a lot easier.

              Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

              by alizard on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 07:51:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Good Point. (0+ / 0-)

                It's nothing personal with "Back to the Cave", I just find his opinion on this matter vastly ignorant. For a Kossack, I expected him to be more enlightened than that. So naturally I was pissed with his responses. If only he realized that his support for the RIAA is tantamount to voting Bush or worse. It's just hypocritical. He probably just doesn't know any better. :/
                I've never heard of Debian, though. I'll check it out!

                •  if you're new to Linux... (0+ / 0-)

                  you may be better off with the Debian-derived Ubuntu than with Debian, Ubuntu is designed for user-friendliness . The main advantage of Debian and its derivatives is a superior installation packaging technology (apt) over rpm based distros (openSUSE, RHEL/Fedora).

                  I used Fedora Core for a couple of years and switched because the nvidia driver would NOT work with my motherboard... the Debian installer is simply a lot less flaky.

                  The easiest way to find out if your existing hardware setup is workable with Linux is get a LiveCD for the distro, insert, and tell the BIOS to boot from it. If it boots and everything comes up, it's installation time.

                  As for our resident cave troll, when's the last time you heard an actual progressive screaming "Communist" accusations and expecting them to be taken seriously?

                  My guess is that there are probably more entrepreneurs here and certainly more technology entrepreneurs (writing tech articles for money is my day job) here than there are on the RedState and FreeRepublic blogs combined... and not a single person who's ever been a member of CPUSA among us.

                  Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                  by alizard on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 08:42:19 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  You are far off (0+ / 0-)

                And fuck you for the insults.  It's Back in the Cave,   but I won't confuse you with the Plato reference.  But, your play on words to infer me a troll, are so original.  Such a witster you are.

                Open source?  Don't pat yourself on the back for being a linux geek.  You're not the only one who came up self learning to program on the AppleII your friend's principle pop was able to take home for the summer when you were eleven.  Oh, that was me.  Calling me a noob regarding any of this is pointless because of my choice to be anonymous here, so with a grain of salt, accept my claim that you are way off.

                I have no problem with OS software, but respect non-participating coders to keep their code proprietary. Regardless, software isn't music and isn't my fight.  Same corner different ring. If you can make open source albums, put a bunch of heads together and make music that charts on its own, great.  Then we can compare the two.  What I do have a problem with is what I suppose you think is your right - to steal the commercial stuff.  And your other crap hobby, distributing pirate copies of people's wares online.  That, you can compare.

                I've pretty much made my point.  You're going to whine like an entitled child and I'm going to tell you the RIAA is not the damn pigs busting the party, they're the protectors of an entire American industry.  

                And, the communist reference?  Demanding that product that is legitimately owned by another be distributed equally to everyone at no cost with no regard to how much was invested in it or how many people make their living from it is not democratic.  Call it anarchist if you want, but you aren't going to socialize music.  If I am wrong, welcome mob rule, goodbye art.  

                So whine the last word if you want.  You're still a greedy, naive, insulting fool.

                "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

                by Back in the Cave on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 11:34:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  actually, I'm just bashing you for the hell of it (0+ / 0-)

                  You have no clue, no comprehension, no understanding of what Communism means, you're semi-literate, you're as ignorant as a Bush Republican even about the industry you claim to work in.

                  More to the point, all you accomplished is to persuade people that RIAA fanboys are really, really, stupid, and really, really pathetic.  

                  "Welcome mob rule, goodbye art."

                  The only persuasion you've done around here has been anti-RIAA. You claim to be the face of the music industry?

                  You got your wish.

                  You've made the music industry look even uglier to people with your endless whining about how EVIL COMMUNISTS!!! endanger the salaries and bonuses of the RIAA label suits, and I think there's exactly one person around here who's credulous enough to think that you or anyone else connected with any RIAA label actually cares about artists getting paid.

                  Since the *AA companies are indeed the most hated organizations on the Internet, your managing to incite this hatred further is something of an accomplishment.

                  I'm going to stop, because I really feel sorry for you.

                  You're the guy who's going to have to show somebody working for a label or a PR agency just how effectively you've advocated for the "cause".

                  Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                  by alizard on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 12:38:05 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That was rich (0+ / 0-)

                    If you had any idea about ANYTHING you were talking about, I'd be touched.  But, I'm arguing with a hack script kiddie tech writer who's trying to press buttons.  

                    Keep it flowing.  You amuse yourself.

                    "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

                    by Back in the Cave on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 11:12:46 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Copyright law is messed up (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alizard, Progressive Moderate

      That's another part of the issue that isn't talked about a lot.

      Copyrights last, if I remember right, for 75 or 100 years or something.  That's frigging ridiculous.

      Of course there should be copyrights as an incentive to produce the material that gets copyrighted.  But the vast majority of movie or music or software sales are within the first few years after the release of the material.

      If you want strict copyright enforcement, you should first except major reform, such as that copyrights last six years.  After six years, it is public domain.

      No, people wouldn't just wait six years to watch the movie or get the music.  Many don't even wait six months to get a movie cheaper via DVD rental, but instead watch it in the theatre.

      Current copyright law is ridiculous, in a lot of realms.  

      Abandonware sites have been shut down over it.  Abandonware is (generally old) software no longer being sold that was being downloaded for free.  But companies have the right under the law to say, "We won't sell it, but you can't share it, either."  (In other words, you cannot legally obtain it, paid OR free).  A six year rule is one way to prevent most travesties like that.

      I get music through iTunes.  I used file sharing before iTunes was available.  To me it's extremely important, however, that illegal file sharing not be stamped out, because the music industry would rather not have to allow iTunes to sell their music at reasonable prices.  They'd rather gouge-- and if they ever shut down file sharing entirely, you can bet they will gouge again.

      So, the government shouldn't help them, in any way.  File sharing that violates fair use is copyright infringement, a civil matter that the RIAA has a right to sue over.  

      But it should never be a criminal matter, and the government should remain as neutral regarding such lawsuits as if I were suing a doctor for malpractice or a fellow motorist for a parking lot accident they caused.

      Economic -3.50/Social -2.41 "Please don't eat the moderates." (Yes, someone else used that before me, but it's perfect.)

      by CenterLeft on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 06:27:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not realistic. (0+ / 0-)

        That puts a limit on the amount of time you can profit from your own creation.  Those who would invest in the furtherance of artists in general would no longer be able to justify investing the money.  

        I understand where you are coming from, but you are only looking at it from your perspective.  There are thousands and thousands and thousands of people in a giant web of employers and employees whose families all depend on the stability of the ART SUPPORT NETWORK.  Kill the roots and you kill the tree.  You don't want that.  The very notion is un-American.  Our descendants came to this land to escape the kind of atmosphere that prevented the common man from achieving success in life.  We all work very hard to balance between the  ideal of philosophic aestheticism that drives us all, and the desire to provide for our families.  What we do under the framework of the law of this land is no different than what any doctor or auto worker or farmer's market vendor does.  Each works hard to make and market product to sell and support their wives and children.  Music may not be something you can hold in your hand, but it is a product.  

        This rebel alliance is not pregnant with the Force.  More like Sith Kiddies.  You don't want to be that.

        "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

        by Back in the Cave on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 05:17:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  so what? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Progressive Moderate, CenterLeft

          Patents have a limited lifespan, too. I expect to be applying for some in the next couple of years.

          As you know, the point behind letting copyright expire is to let the protected material get into the public domain, so the rest of us can use it as building blocks for creative works of the future.

          As Disney used the public domain literary works as a basis to create derivative works to start their empire.

          Very few creative works spring full-grown out of absolutely nothing, they're generally bits and pieces from half-remembered ideas out of the past.

          Not that you would know anything about creative work from experience.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 06:13:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  God, I can't tell if you're more (0+ / 0-)

            an asshole or idiot.  

            I work for artists.  I represent artists.  I am a personal manager. Rarely a day goes by when most of my time isn't spent around creation, music, video, photographic.  It is completely apparent to the casual reader that I am the one talking ex cathedra and you are busy whining about how entitled you are to works of the artists you steal from.  

            And, apparently, you are so devoid of originality (which there are concrete legal ways to determine, BTW) that you have to try to change copyright laws so you can steal even the damn ideas.  

            You, are the one who would have a hard time coming up with a creative work were it to relieve the splinter from your eye.

            I bold you and raise your pointless arguments and playground insults a royal italic bird.

            "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

            by Back in the Cave on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 11:50:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  odd. . . (0+ / 0-)

              I've been making a living off professional writing for 20 years.

              Isn't it odd that everybody around here who creates and sells intellectual property for a living (starting with Kos) thinks you're completely full of shit?

              For the sake of argument, I'll accept that you work for a RIAA label.

              "A people hire A people, B people hire C people. . ."

              What you are telling us is that they've got "F" people doing the hiring.

              The "mystery" of how record label profits seem to diminish over time is solved, and has nothing to do with file-sharing or "exotic" technologies like MP3 players.

              Putting "F" people into management is a great way to kill a business. You've got a few lobbyists with plenty of money to spend trying to protect the industry from the consequences of its mistakes. . . and that's all that stands between you and the rest of the parasites in the record industry and a future flipping burgers.

              I don't think even legislators on the RIAA payroll can put the inevitable off for much longer.

              I look forward to seeing your company and the other major players sold at firesale prices based on the record catalogues and tangible assets like CD pressing facilities and real estate, and their being purchased by entrepreneurs who have a clue as to how to make money with them.

              And someday, I'll be able to log onto a record label website and buy either full CD-quality downloads or for print-on-demand albums that aren't even available on collectible record sites.

              There's no reason why a book or a record should ever go out of print. The fact that records go out of print is a pretty exact measure of the kind of "thinking" that goes on at upper management levels of the kind of company you unconvincingly claim to work for.

              Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

              by alizard on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 01:08:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I think StuartZ pegged you correctly (0+ / 0-)

              As for me, I write technology articles for money. I doubt any of them will ever be turned into an MTV lifestyle story, so you'll never see what I do, which is just as well since you wouldn't understand it anyway.

              I don't consider myself "an artist" or "An Author", but it's creative work and unlike you or any project anyone would let you into, actually serves a useful purpose.

              You claim to "work for" and "represent" artists because you have no discernible talent and nobody would believe that you yourself are one. As for your understanding the "creative process". . . getting that across to you would be as possible as explaining color to a man born blind.

              Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

              by alizard on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 02:00:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Were I a Project Manager, perhaps (0+ / 0-)

                But if your reading comprehension were even up to Texas primary school standards, you'd have picked up on the fact that I am a personal manager.  

                Twat.  Nobody left behind, my butt.  You're a field trip orphan.  Nobody came looking and you just decided to miseducate yourself.

                Cheaper that way, but as you've let on it wasn't too successful an endeavor.

                Bottom line through all this flame is that you are an outsider; you're bitter at your failure as a writer; you're eager to steal the works of others like a dirty buzzard on a freshly murdered body; and your wit is as slow as a fly at 15K feet.

                I love it.  A tech writer who proposes to know shit about the music industry, but who fucks up even the secondhand info, willing to demonize it anyway because his little realm found a way to cannibalize and support itself with our product.

                Get the hell out of this conversation, you hack.  Nothing you have written here has any worth whatsoever in furthering the argument because you don't have a clue.  You have wasted my time and everyone else's who thought they were enjoying a real flame war.  

                You in your utter lack of understanding, brought nothing but old, secondhand, bullshit to this conversation.  

                Not, that it wasn't patently obvious to everyone reading.

                "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

                by Back in the Cave on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 11:09:00 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  As Elizard said... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          alizard, Progressive Moderate

          ...and I want to emphasize, patents also have a limited lifespan.  That does not stop people from seeking them and inventing, as inventors make plenty of money in the limited lifespan as would artists within the six years (and the industry itself would, too, although I'd love it if the industry were killed off and the money went directly to the artists).

          You go against the principles of liberalism, progressivism, or even centrism if you seek unlimited property rights.  Unlimited property rights would, after all, mean no taxation.

          That would make you an extreme libertarian, although extreme libertarians don't want the government to criminally enforce civil law.

          So that leaves you on the far right wing on this issue, which is not where the Democrats ought to be.

          Economic -3.50/Social -2.41 "Please don't eat the moderates." (Yes, someone else used that before me, but it's perfect.)

          by CenterLeft on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 10:05:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ugggggh. (0+ / 0-)

            You're proud of that one, regardless of it's rediculous accusation.  I have a long history here, which you are welcome to search the archives for before spitting up that kind of pflegm.  

            To those who are fed the garbage about the labels making all the money and the artists getting screwed:

            Music as a career is speculative as is investing in their careers.  No one who signs a recording contract is forced to.  They are asking what is basically a bank dipped into distributing sauce and covered with marketing to buy their art and sell it for them, paying them a percentage.  

            And, depending on how much they think people will buy the artist's album, they will give them an advance on future earnings so they don't have to wait around forever for royalties to kick in.  It's a loan.  Not bling bling money, but to use to tour their band.  You know?  That $700K+ it costs to tour a ten piece band and their crew for a couple months?  An expensive goddamn thing to do, but where the artists make the majority of their money.  The labels make sure everyone knows your name, and you go pay them all visits, give them your love and sweat, and sell them shirts to remember you by.  This is where the artists make their money.

            However, you don't make much money touring unless you are getting played on the airwaves - and without going into details, it takes a lot of man hours to get the music to all the Stations and develop the trust to consider the submissions.  It is an industry in itself, and it costs.  Another place the money is needed if the artists are going to be able to profit.

            Oh god, the publicity.  It doesn't grow on trees.  You pay for your publicist's staff, who get you on Late Night talk shows and featured in Variety.  Don't think they just call you.

            These labels don't roll around naked in cash.  They  spend a lot of their own money paying a lot of hard working employees and contractors - all artists themselves in some way - to do all the things necessary to get CDs in the hands of people all over the globe.  They are counting on the album making money (not stealing it in whatever form) to pay those employees and turn a profit, like every business.

            If with all the help in the world, people just choose not to buy your stuff (or if people just steal it instead) you are in trouble, just as anyone else who might have borrowed money in a failing venture:  you still owe the bank for the loan.

            It's risky believing that destiny demands your music and your lead singer's sweat reach every corner in the world.  It's expensive missionary work.

            Are labels suppose to . . . what?  Give their money and productive work force to everyone for free?  Brilliant.  Way to see the big picture.  These venture capitalist recording labels go, and so does touring.  Sorry.

            Like I said up top, no one forces a band to sell their album to a recording label.  They can be waiters and keep their music local, working outside the art world, playing as a hobbiest.  They can keep all the money from their album sales.  It'll buy them a nice new box to store their instruments in as they lose their fire and master TIVO.

            This is the norm for hobbiests.  But, do you want your entitlement and greed to prevent something that everyone deserves to hear from touching everyone?  They don't ever sell their album, the label doesn't ever do all the marketing and placement and don't put your new artist on tour with John Mayer, and you don't sell shit.  100% of nothing more than you can fit into your navel.

            This is what you desire?  You have no freaking clue how this business works and no idea what your theft, were it not regulated and prosecuted, would do to art in general.  One-track minded, uninformed, simple, young, and greedy.

            You related to Bush?  Operation Just Desserts?  

            "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

            by Back in the Cave on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 12:42:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  and with all this effort and labor. . . (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CenterLeft

              and all the payola, the best the record industry can do is Britney Spears and the latest boy-toy bands.

              AND YOU WONDER WHY RECORD SALES ARE DROPPING?

              YOU WONDER WHY YOUR FORMER REGULAR CUSTOMERS NO LONGER CARE ABOUT YOUR COMPANY PRODUCTS ANYMORE?

              Business models that are unsustainable fall apart, and no amount of government regulation can protect them forever against market forces.

              Or demographic forces, like the splintering of the mass market into fractions too small for anyone to sell platinum into. You've got a business model that can't make money with somebody who can sell 10K SKUs reliably every year, and that's where the action is going to be in a decade.

              I don't know what's going to replace the "record label as VC" (like Silicon Valley VCs, just not as greedy, intelligent,  competent, or honest) ... but hopefully, the mediocrities turned into "stars" will fade into oblivion just like your career is going to.

              Personally, I'd like to see "cream" rising to the top for a change, not crap. And the end of your industry will probably be the start of this happening.

              Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

              by alizard on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 01:19:15 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're like a chatty cathy doll. (0+ / 0-)

                You spit out day old news while the three dimensional amongst us are analyzing the colors as they run together an are busy painting the next masterpiece with the remains.  

                You know nothing more than what you read, and your diarrhea here is no more original than music you make violating others' copyrights.

                Be the resident wannabe health care expert next.  I'd like to see you hand the good doctor his uninformed ass.

                *sigh*

                "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

                by Back in the Cave on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:54:04 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  That one really got to you (0+ / 0-)

              Note I said you were right wing on this issue, not that you were a right winger.  Your history can show that you're overall a liberal, but it doesn't make your position on this particular issue any less right wing.

              So...all those people are needed to get a band going.  Why?  I'd guess it's because other bands have them.

              If the RIAA companies go belly up, and no bands have them, radio stations aren't going to stop playing music.

              Exactly what would happen?  I don't know for sure, but my guess is that bands looking to become big would get agents the way aspiring actors do (who with aspiring bands, as actors' agents with aspiring actors, would represent a whole bunch of bands).

              Much less overhead and infrastructure to be paid there, and the agents market their artists' songs to radio stations to get air time, etc..  

              That wouldn't work now, as their agent with 20 artists would be competing with the infrastructure you mentioned.

              But get rid of that infrastructure for everyone, and the playing field is level, and then the agent is probably all an artist needs.

              And you just accused me of stealing, when I've never stolen.  I've violated copyright law, which is what you call stealing; but I haven't even done that since iTunes became available.  I'm perfectly content to pay $1/song.  That's fair.  And in fact, once cumulative inflation reaches 50% higher than today, the price can go up to $1.50/song and I'll accept it.

              But...I'm not as young as you might assume, and I did buy music in pre-Napster days.  And I still feel ripped off, remembering the skyrocketing price of cassette and CD singles, and then fewer and fewer songs being released as singles at all, so that people would have to buy the whole album.

              And then there's of course the absurdity that copyrights aren't very time limited as patents are, and a lot of songs just plain weren't available in any form.

              And yes, it made sense that, as with out of print books, record labels stopped publishing albums once the demand for them was too small.  But when it reaches that point, it needs to be public domain-- because I do demand a copy for free if you won't sell it to me.

              And right now, all I demand is reasonable prices as well as reform to bring things into the public domain much, much faster.  iTunes offers reasonable prices, so it's what I use.  But I know that iTunes only exists because people are using BitTorrent and getting the content for free.  

              So, I know that it's essential for "piracy" to continue to happen, or we'd be back to the old ripoff days.  The Democrats-- the party of the people rather than the powerful-- should commit themselves to making sure those days never return.

              Economic -3.50/Social -2.41 "Please don't eat the moderates." (Yes, someone else used that before me, but it's perfect.)

              by CenterLeft on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:57:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're only off (0+ / 0-)

                In your description of an "RIAA company."  There is no such thing.  RIAA is an enforcement agency that protects the rights of its members from theft of intellectual property.  Their MEMBERS are many.  Browse their site.  Most labels are members.

                It's all a bit more complicated than the euphoric possible future you describe.  I'd love to get into it more, but I'm doing all this from the floor of a conference in Vegas . . .  eh, screw it.  No one important around.

                OK.  It doesn't take a mint to make a band.  You can even tour on the cheap.  In the 90's I used to be an agent.  Sent some pretty damn good bands around the country.  

                Thing is, I was still young.  The tours were inefficient and lacked real promotion.  No radio.  No real publicity.  Too many people who deserved to be touched couldn't be.

                Not every band needs to have their album promoted and not every band is asked to spend that kind of money.  But, sometimes an investor (label) will offer to put the dime into a product.  They offer to purchase the album in order they can market it and sell it for you.  

                It's a tough call.  You're going to owe money if you do and you have to determine if you believe in your music enough to take that loan against yourself.

                You don't have to, and you don't have to.  It's just so much different now that recording equipment and the access to rudimentary promotional outlets is so widespread.  Everyone has an EPK whereas a few years ago, you couldn't find but a handful of venue buyers or promoters who were tech savvy enough to freaking open your MP3's. Nowadays, there are infinitely more bands with arguably the same amount of net talent.  Unfortunately, with the increase of people who choose to throw on a guitar strap and rock, there was no coresponding increase in disposable income people had to support it.  So times are lean.  There are no extra positions open, and there are a staggering number of disillusioned who since they cannot sell it, give it, and the product that some sell is somehow now the target of a revolt.  

                Am I remotely off here?  I've been swimming in this pond for a long time and this is  pretty much how it's seen everywhere I've been.  Here, Europe, and especially in Japan.  

                So you know, I'm not a fan of the prices of discs now.  Not at all.  So you know, all of my clients have written into their contracts the maximum retail price of the product, and it's never been over $15.99.  Ever.  And, my clients have all been influenced into providing content in their album packaging just a bit better than could have been fit into a vinyl LP.  Although, you can deliver value and keep costs down, it's coming from somewhere.  It might mean less people are introduced because the marketing is the victim, but you make do because at the end of the day, despite what the tech writer lizard thinks he understands, we all live to bring good into the world.

                Also, you know that your band will always make the lions share of your money from touring and you understand the costs . . . and you understand where it comes from . . . if it comes at all.  So I know you understand.  It's all connected and each aspect compliments the other.  Our web of life.

                It takes a tech geek to know that these tech geeks don't have any idea of the way our biosphere runs, and their hostile takeover attempt is an affront to music and music lovers alike.  One that directly affects the lives of thousands and thousands of hard working people.

                Things may change, no matter what, we are going to continue to be able to feed our children, and people will still pay for good art.

                "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

                by Back in the Cave on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 11:50:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Okay, some fair points.... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Progressive Moderate

                  Let me ask you a few questions, with the intent to lay off the vitriol and just ask your view of these issues:

                  1. Do you think that iTunes (and similar sites) would be allowed to continue to sell a legal download with unlimited plays of nearly any song one wants for $1/song (eventually adjusted for inflation) if "piracy" were successfully eliminated?
                  1. Regardless of whether you think the answer to #1 is no but nevertheless think "piracy" ideally would be eliminated entirely, would you prefer to see iTunes and sites like them able to continue to operate as they are, if you could choose?
                  1. Since you are left of center and as such accept that there are some limits to property rights (taxation being okay, time limits on patents being okay), what is the rationale behind your support for nearly unlimited copyright protection terms?

                  I'll write a bit more about my view on copyright protection limitations:

                  I think that the goals of most economic policy, including this one, should be:

                  1. To make sure that products get produced, and
                  1. To make such items as affordable and as widely available as possible, within the constraint of part 1.

                  Pure socialists (who are very few) reject part 1 as a consideration, as if people would be as productive no matter what.  Pure capitalists (radical libertarians) reject Part 2 as a consideration.  Many of today's Repugs seem to think Part 2 is actually a bad thing.

                  Mainstream ideology balances Part 1 with Part 2.  Current copyright law does basically nothing for Part 2.  My view is that copyrights should last long enough so as not to overly discourage the making of such materials, but only that long.

                  Few songs (or movies, etc.) make much money more than six years after they're released, although there are exceptions (but those exceptions almost always made lots of money in the first six years).

                  Therefore, I feel that a six year limit won't mean much less production (Part 1) and would be fantastic for Part 2.

                  If you think I've gone wrong, please tell me where.  If it's just property rights, then on this specific issue you're right-wing, even if on other issues you aren't.  That isn't awful.  I have right of center views on a few issues, while I'm overall left of center.  But can you tell me why a left of center individual, one who cares about Part 2, should want nearly unlimited copyright terms?

                  Economic -3.50/Social -2.41 "Please don't eat the moderates." (Yes, someone else used that before me, but it's perfect.)

                  by CenterLeft on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 01:54:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  you are NOT a good progressive (0+ / 0-)

      What you are is a waste of perfectly good oxygen.

      Go to your natural home in the GOP. And take Jenni Engebretsen with you.

      Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

      by alizard on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 02:42:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A lizard. Heh. (0+ / 0-)

        First of all, you little shit, if you're going to insult, you're a big doodie head approach only primes your reader to be able to gauge your argument's basic worth.

        Second of all, you only show your idiocy telling me that since I am not down with a mob-driven greedy communist vampire call to arms to steal music that I must now be GOP.  

        Lizard, go through the archives.  I am a pretty storied vet of campaigning for Democratic candidates for going on two decades.  I have lived three to a bed in housing too shitty for the college students I was organizing there to make sure a GOP incumbent was defeated.

        Don't you dare tell me I am without progressive ideals because I subscribe to the American dream.  You are delusional.  Think about re-evaluating your philosophy and examining yourself to discover from where your wayward greedy communist ravings originate.  

        Waste of oxygen.  Lizard, where were you back in '90 when we were fighting our asses off to standardize air pollution standards between states?  Think back . . . It was before you were wasting your time insulting people on blog comment boards . . . Think about the shit you say before you say it.  Your oxygen would suck if honest, hard-working, real Democrats weren't busting our asses putting in the real time.  

        And as fucked up as I think your communist philosophy is, I wouldn't insult you by telling you you don't deserve the clean Oxygen that my kind has ensured you.  Contrary, I respect your right to say it and then eventually grow the hell up and mature into the system that makes our country great.  Good Dems participate in the American Way.

         

        "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

        by Back in the Cave on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 05:37:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  hi, troll... (0+ / 0-)

          Your kind has ensured us absolutely nothing.

          The environmental legislation of the past was passed in the face of the industry greed sanctified by people like you.

          "The American Dream" you talk about has been turned into shit by the corporations YOU shill for, and your employers are part of the corporatist crowd we're trying to take it back from.

          So it's "Communist" to oppose your industry's case study in advanced rent-seeking? It's "Communist" not to support every extension of the Copyright Act every time Disney/ABC's copyrights on Mickey Mouse are in danger of running out? You know no more about "Communism" than you know about being progressive.

          You think it's part of the duty of the blogosphere to help the "American Way" by looking the other way when your bosses buy politicians to pass anti-consumer and anti-technology legislation?

          You're wrong.

          It's our public duty to stop people like your bosses.

          p.s. I don't believe ANY of your claims about suffering for the cause of progressivism... they read too much liks something dreamed up by a PR hack. Which I suspect is the only connection you've really got with the Hollywood content cartel. I think you're just another astroturfer whose background gets reinvented every time you want to influence the public in a direction your "sponsors" want. Netvocates?

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Fri Apr 13, 2007 at 06:05:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You don't have a clue what a troll is (0+ / 0-)

            Do you, UID 100K+

            Not buying into your grab the neighbor's shit and run philosophy isn't troll.  And, my bosses?

            Stop my bosses?

            General partner.  Am a boss.  

            Stop me?  I represent artists, you twat.  Stop me?  I bleed labels for my clients.

            Stop me?  You don't have even the most basic knowledge of what I do or how general business is run.  You are a hack and YOU ARE THE TROLL.  Just because I'm the only one with the balls enough to walk into this sure as hell doesn't make me a troll.  

            Eat my comment history, you anarchist no-show.  I've been here and helping elect Dems while campaigning artists you aren't fit to breathe near since you were learning to spell B-L-O-G.

            Call me a troll.  Cute.

            "Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor." --Sholem Yakov Rabinowitz

            by Back in the Cave on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:49:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hey there Republicrat! (0+ / 0-)

              We know you're just a talentless phony that profits off of real artists. The only reason you're putting up a fight is because alizard and I are telling it like it is. The truth hurts, doesn't it?
              You could care less about culture, art or the "American Way". You're a selfish, craven hypocrite that thrives off of the corruption of big business. As alizard put it, you are anti-consumer and anti-technology.
              Go back to being Lars Ulrich's lap dog. It's very obvious by now that you only care about business interests and nothing else. The "liberal" celebrities you claim to campaign with and so on are just limo liberal scumbags that vote Democratic but think and live like Republicans. It's all just a sham PR effort on your part. You're a Democrat in name only. People like you are the reason the Democrats have ceased to be a decent political opposition anymore.
              Go ahead and have your lame, repetitive rants about how we're all communists and how you're right because you have the legal backing of the RIAA. You're too much of a gutless coward to admit your true colors! Amazing!
              You're one of those "concern trolls" that Kos and others on this board mention from time to time.

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