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View Diary: Iraq accountability: November and March (157 comments)

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  •  Maybe so, but we're all agreed (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, zeke L, Fraggle

    that this war is a mistake, and we must end it, right?  With a huge central point of agreement like that, surely we can work together on the rest.

    •  While some might call it semantics, I don't ... (12+ / 0-)

      ...agree that it is a mistake. Indeed, I said as much here in Enough already with calling Iraq a mistake.

      •  I'm probably one of those who (2+ / 0-)

        would not want us totally out of Iraq five minutes ago.  There are things I would like us to do there:

        1. resist Al Qaeda, which wants to wreak maximum havoc there
        1. prevent the worst excesses of a Sunni-Shi'ite civil war
        1. help forestall a de facto war between Iran and Saudi Arabia and its allies
        1. help forestall a war between Turkey and the Kurds
        1. provide humanitarian assistance to the refugees our invasion created
        1. help rebuild where we are welcome and can be of help

        And then there are things that I would not like to see us do there:

        1. continue to take sides in an Iraqi civil war rather than fostering negotiations between our Sunni "enemies" and our Shi'ite "enemies"
        1. focus on maintaining permanent bases
        1. push through legislation that puts Iraqi oil in the hards of Western oil companies
        1. continue to prop up a corrupt and unpopular government

        I actually have some sympathy for McCain's position that having gone into Iraq -- wrongly in my opinion, rightly in his -- it would be horrifically wrong for us just wash our hands and abandon them.  Unfortunately, what he doesn't realize is that our ability to do anything positive there has been poisoned.  We can't lead, we can't help.  Our civilian leadership has been stupid and venal and few countries in the world, let alone people in Iraq, want us to succeed anymore.  That "horrific wrong" may be our best and mosst productive option:  we have to withdraw militarily so that all sides can stare clearly into the abyss and they and others can come in and help to forestall disaster.

        I think -- I hope -- that Bush has not so poisoned things that we can still be accepted as fighting against Al Qaeda in the limited forays described in the Reid-Feingold bill.  And if he has made that impossible, I hope that others will step forward.  But while Bush is President, it can't be us.  He simply can't be trusted.

        Maybe all this puts me on the odds with the DKos consensus; I doubt it, though.

        My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

        by Major Danby on Tue May 01, 2007 at 06:50:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Meteor Blades (6+ / 0-)

        I'm with you on that sentiment. This was no mistake. It was as cold & calculated a plan as I've witnessed in my lifetime. Stupid, willful, hubristic, near-sighted, greedy, unconcerned about human & environmental costs, yes.  Mistake, no.

        •  Yes, the _whole point_ was to get us entangled (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Catrina

          ... in a broken Iraq in such a way that our "ownership" of the mess would then leave even those initially opposed to the war at a loss for alternatives to staying forever.

          That's the way war criminals operate. They know full well that once war has been started for however flimsy a reason, the situation develops a fatal logic of its own and they can ward off all attempts to change course. Indeed, the war party can rely on many of their opponents to do the job of arguing "stay the course" for them.

          The Dutch children's choir Kinderen voor Kinderen (= “children for children”) is a world cultural treasure.

          by lotlizard on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:53:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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