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View Diary: Iraq accountability: November and March (157 comments)

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  •  really? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zeke L, talex, neroden

    I was just thinking that the problem here is often that people forget/ignore the fact that we all want out 5 minutes ago. I was thinking that sometimes people jump to the conclusion that someone who says "I don't think it's realistic for us to leave Iraq tomorrow" is also someone who doesn't think we ought to have left yesterday (or 4 years ago, or never have gone).

    I respect your opinions a lot - I just haven't noticed many people here (leaving aside the Dem Party as a whole, especially our elected officials) advancing any position other than the "this is a dumb terrible war and we should not be there" position.  I guess there's occasional "leaving could make it worse"-type analyses, but those (from what I notice at least) are pretty rare and getting rarer.

    •  I Think You Are Right (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kid oakland, Fraggle, offgrid

      most people here, a vast majority, want out 5 minutes ago. They fight the leadership tooth and nail on this site to the point of being ridiculous even though the leadership gives us the best that is available given the different factions that make up our caucus.

      Your observation about those who "leaving could make it worse" are getting pretty rare is correct. Those people that are still here with that view get drowned out - but most of them have left because they could get the same thing a Democratic Underground.

      "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

      by talex on Tue May 01, 2007 at 04:35:03 PM PDT

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      •  of course leaving is going to make it worse (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        philgoblue, offgrid

        That's a foregone conclusion. That was set in motion the moment the bombs started falling. There is no way for the US to leave a stable Iraq. Iraq with 150,000 foreign troops is inherently unstable.

        America cannot stop the bloodletting, so why keep troops over there? The entire Iraqi government apparatus is a carboard cutout, a potemkin display model. We have acheived nothing. Iraq has regressed.

        Dreams of empire die hard; empire, that goes away quickly.--Juan Cole

        by nota bene on Tue May 01, 2007 at 05:12:51 PM PDT

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        •  Will it? That's the question. (0+ / 0-)

          How much of this carnage is advanced under the guise of fighting the occupiers and how much for sectarian reasons?

          We really won't know until we leave but the fight against the occupiers will be over. That much is for sure.

          And if the fighting continues unabated, well then, it really is a regional problem and requires far more than the US to rectify.

          Will leaving make it worse? Dunno.

          But staying certainly will. It has so far.

          •  well (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Meteor Blades, MrSandman, maryru

            when the U.S. leaves (not if, when), the Iraqi government will be challenged by somebody or another as lacking authority.

            When that happens, an open civil war may erupt...there's a more or less undeclared civil war ongoing already.

            It could be argued that the presence of US troops makes a regional war (potentially dragging in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Turkey, or Israel, or any combination) less likely, but the US presence cannot be maintained forever. I think that war is avoidable, given the appropriate diplomatic efforts; I also think the longer the US stays in Iraq, the longer it will take for Iraq to stabilize, and the longer the region is at risk for a wider outbreak of war.

            So I guess, in a roundabout way, I agree....staying is only making everything worse. Nothing will improve with a longer occupation.

            Dreams of empire die hard; empire, that goes away quickly.--Juan Cole

            by nota bene on Tue May 01, 2007 at 07:00:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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