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View Diary: UPDATE: Fight the Veto (321 comments)

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  •  Mr. Bush, End This War Now!!! (17+ / 0-)

    We need a defining moment, one which captures the media's attention as Democrats stand further in unity over ending this horrible mess.

    My vote for slogan:  This commander isn't worthy of his troops

    We need really strong language, and we need better speakers out there than nancy and Harry... sure they are our leaders, but they need not be our spokesman...  Get Webb out to the Vietnam memorial, bring cameras, and let him loose on Bush!

    And send this fricken bill back, again and again

    Cut n Run... to Mars... Ma Bitches

    by Steven R on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:36:03 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Senator Webb Says (26+ / 0-)

      Please don't use the word "war" to describe the current events in Iraq.  The war is long over: we won.  We're now engaged in a hostile occupation against the will of the people of Iraq.  An occupation can't be won or lost, it can only be continued, or ended.  It's time to end this one.

      In the words of Senator Webb:

      "Congress exercised its constitutional responsibility this week by appropriating more than $100 billion to fully support our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Today, the President chose not to cash that check. It is up to him to explain to the American people why.

      "We won this war four years ago. The question is when we end the occupation. This bill called for a much-needed shift in our approach to Iraq. The United States military is not going to change the societal makeup of Iraq. And the Malaki government is not going to bring peace among Iraq's competing factions without the strong, overt, diplomatic cooperation of other countries in this region. And this bill called for just an approach.

      "I have always said that we need to support the troops through leadership that is equal to the sacrifices we are asking them to make. It is time for a new approach in Iraq, one that displays smart diplomatic leadership in the region. We must bring this occupation to a proper conclusion that will increase our ability to focus on international terrorism, increase the stability in the region and allow us to focus on our strategic interests elsewhere in the world."

      •  wish I could rec Webb too :) (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Creosote

        He needs to post so we can mojo him LOL!

      •  My gosh, I'm glad Webb beat Allen! (6+ / 0-)

        In one squeaker of an election victory we put a strong, clear voice of reason in the Senate, removed a voice for closet bigotry, and knocked out an early front runner for the Republican presidential candidacy in 2008.

        We're all pretty crazy some way or other; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is just a setting on the dryer.

        by david78209 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:03:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  he must listen to Thom Hartmann.... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        William Domingo, offgrid

        or read Jeffrey Feldman and Frameshop.  This isn't our war ... we are occupying a country against its will, with 75% wanting us out, 65% immediately.

        Every day .... will be a "Constitutional crisis" given we have a president who doesn't give a damn about the Constitution. Kos

        by billlaurelMD on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:00:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Gosh, how different that is than this (0+ / 0-)

        fund raising letter.

        That's all this is - a fund raising letter.

        "Thank you Senator!"
        "FIghting the good fight..."

        That's bullshit, guys, and it's unproductive.

        Call this lame assed fund raising scheme out.

        Fucking sad, man.

        "President Bush Vetoes Funding of Troops!"

        Please repeat it.

        We need hammers. Get on TV, Mr. Kerry, say something audacious but true.

        Piss people off.

        Say,"Bush fucked up!" then stick to your guns.

        Say,"President Bush is killing America!"

        "A new kind of activism campaign" my ass. This is the same crap you've been doing for the last 8 years.

        I have a new kind of activism campaign, get off your ass and thrash these criminals ruthlessly.

        "Rubber Stamp Republicans", that's all you've come up with in the last 2 years.

        "Criminals!"
        "Criminally negligent!"
        "War Crimes!"
        "Impeachment!"

        Ugh!

        Freedom is not a commodity. No Shit Sherlock

        by k9disc on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:55:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

        Wow, what a load of complete crap.

        Like you can separate the destruction of a country and its government and its society from the mess that logically follows from that.

        Its complete BS to say we won this war four years ago.  Its exactly the same BS Bush was spreading from under that Mission Accomplished banner.

        Its BS because its trying to say that you get to define war the way you want to define it.  But the thing about war is that their is an opposition, and that opposition has a say in things too.

        Wars aren't pretty and neat.  They tend to get out of control.  They tend to lead to places where the people who started them never imagined they would lead.  The leades who started WWI pictured a short war of only a few months.  They never pictured trench warfare, gas warfare, the rise of the Soviet Union, none of that.

        This is about the same as the Kaiser saying he won WWI because he marched halfway across France in a few months, then trying to call the next four years of disaster "the failed occupation of France".

        This is why people opposed this war in the beginning.  No, not the phony Dems who now pretend they opposed it.  I'm talking about the millions and millions of people who took to the streets and said "DON'T DO THIS".  

        They knew war is messy, war is unpredictable, that war is hell. This is why you absolutely do not ever start a war you don't absolutely have to fight.  This was an optional war.  Iraq was no threat to us.  We knew it then, we know it now.  

        The danger of this BS argument from Webb is that while it might talk sensably about getting out of this disasterous war, it leaves the door wide open for the next won.  Because if we walk away thinking we "won this war four years ago", then we'll think we can win the next war too.  And if we forget that all of the disaster that's happened in Iraq is completely connected to the illegal and immoral decision to go to war in the first place, then we'll make the same mistake again.  Just like we always do.

        The Nuremberg courts, following the arguments of the American prosecutor, declared that the greatest crime that Hitler committed was the act of launching an unprovoked, aggressive war against Poland.  They said this because they recognized that all the horrors of WWII came from that decision.

        Likewise, we must not bs ourselves into thinking anything but that every disaster and horror that has been Iraq in the last four years comes from the illegal and immoral decision to launch an unprovoked, aggressive war against that country.

        "I will not vote for or support any candidate for Congress or President who does not support a speedy end to the war in Iraq." -votersforpeace.org

        by COBear on Thu May 03, 2007 at 06:09:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Rejoinder (0+ / 0-)

          If this is a war, then who is our enemy?

          Where is the battlefield?

          What territory must we take?

          What would "winning" mean?

          What will we gain when we "win"?

          I opposed the misadventure in Iraq from the very outset.  I still think it was stupid, and morally wrong, and lots of other negatives.  It was a "war" when we were facing the Iraqi Army, and perhaps even when we were hunting down Saddam and his sons.  Not much more than that, though.

          Of course it's messy, and bloody awful.  But we can't "win" because there isn't any military goal.  We're just staying there to prove we can stay there.  It serves no purpose.  

          My main point, though, is that the Repulicons like to frame the mess in Iraq as a "war" because it makes people feel that we have to "win" and that leaving = losing.  And they don't want to "lose."  But if you don't talk in those terms, it's easier to see that leaving is just leaving, and staying isn't "winning."

          You do want to persuade the American people that it's okay to leave, right?  I just think that talking about a "war" isn't an effective way to do so.

    •  Senator Webb just gave a speech this week in (5+ / 0-)

      the Senate where he made the point that this is not Vietnam, which he seems to still think was winnable and popular.

      Webb, speaking on Iraq is great. Doing it at the Vietnam Memorial would make no sense given he sees no link.

      There is no speaker more effective on this issue than Senator Kerry. His Dissent speech was intensely powerful.

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