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View Diary: Sanchez Approved Torture; White House May Be Linked to Decision (169 comments)

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  •  I agree... (none)
    ...and so does the Center for Economic and Social Rights [blogwhore].

    And while we might not ever have direct evidence that Bush gave an explicit order to use torture, as I'm sure they're clever enough to ensure plausible deniability, it's damn clear that these thugs created a fertile environment for Abu Ghraib et al.  PINR hit the nail on the head a couple weeks ago [blogwhore again]:

    In order to have such scenarios be acted out with impunity on unwilling subjects, there must be a climate of permissiveness created by authority figures. Such permission can be granted through direct orders, condoning the behavior, or an attitude of dismissive negligence.

    Whether or not the abasement rituals were a matter of explicit or suggestive policy, they occurred within an environment of dismissive negligence. Treatment of prisoners according to international standards was not a top priority of military leaders and bureaucratic defense intellectuals who conceived and have managed the occupation of Iraq. Regarding the consequences of their neglect of their own power and interests, the leaders were short-sighted.

    Yup, that about sums it up.

    The fool wonders, the wise man asks.

    by NTodd on Sun Jun 13, 2004 at 05:05:10 PM PDT

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    •  Bush deniable? Why the press conference evasions? (4.00)
      while we might not ever have direct evidence that Bush gave an explicit order to use torture, as I'm sure they're clever enough to ensure plausible deniability

      I would have thought so too, but Bush was so cagey under direct questioning at his last press conference, it makes me think that some trail really may lead to him.  Are there people he no longer trusts who can put him in a meeting where all this crap was approved?

      He repeatedly fell back on the 'my orders were legal' defense, refusing to respond in any meaningful way to questions about the Justice Dept memo, which redefines 'legal' into meaninglessness.

      But hey, we're not talking about anything serious here like lying about a blowjob, so it can't rise to the level of high crimes, right?

      The supports are being kicked away one by one... timbers creaking... I just wish they didn't have all those nukes up on the top floor.

      •  He signed an "authorization" (4.00)
        As Bush kept saying at the G8 presser, he signed an authorization and gave instructions that his people were expected to follow.

        There's an executive order or a secret finding with Bush's signature on it that authorizes this behavior - otherwise, it wouldn't have happened. Because, according to their legal briefs, the behavior would not have been legal if the President hadn't signed the authorization.

        And as Bush kept telling us, everything they did was legal, right?

        I am waiting to see the Fox News/Limbaugh/right-wing spin that, yes, it was torture, and yes, it was more than a "few bad apples", and yes, the President authorized it, and yes, the President then lied about it, but it's all good because ...
        they were all bad.

        •  "they were all bad" (none)
          I don't think we'll hear that one until Ahnold is in the WH...

          The fool wonders, the wise man asks.

          by NTodd on Sun Jun 13, 2004 at 06:11:13 PM PDT

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        •  This whole thing makes me sick (4.00)
          and you are right, the far right will justify this for whatever reason they can think up.  It is WRONG, plain and simple.  Remember Bush when the war started? How he told Saddam to treat OUR soldiers humanly?  

          Clinton had his definition of "is," Bush is going to have his definition of "torture."  It just is beyond any comprehension.....to any person of reason that our nation, the nation that fought against Hitler, has committed these acts, and done so seeking justification of such acts.

          I am a liberal, I am PROUD to shout this fact, to stand tall and know that I nor any who have been against this war from the start would have EVER had anything to do with this torture. Who are the "REAL" Americans now? Rush? Hannity? those who seek to find ways to convince the lemmings that the war on terrorism means our loss of morality? our loss of humanity? our loss of ANY respect in the world?  Real Americans stood up against this war, real Americans knew that this administration would take us down a road that was dark and full of dangers.  REAL AMERICANS are those who did not blindly wave the flag.  Real Americans questioned the statements made by this administration, and REAL Americans can stand tall and NOT have to find justification for any of their actions.

          I am a Liberal, I am a REAL American, an AMERICAN who has never wavered in the knowledge that going into this war was done so based on lies.  The lies continue, with the most recent being the report on terrorism.  Rather than a 40 year low in terrorism the report has to be redone to reflect the REAL numbers, which will show that terrorism is at a 20 year high.

          Sorry all.....I just am sick and tired of my patriotism being questioned by those who justify this ANTI AMERICAN behavior.

          •  SanJoseLady, don't apologize (4.00)
            It makes us all sick. And perhaps it will make even more Americans sick, until they realize that what they are suffering from is the illness caused by a philosophy that treats other humans as objects and things.

            Say it loud - I'm liberal and proud!

        •  That's correct -- (none)
          there's a paper trail.  Compliance with required procedures, however minimal, was done because everyone of those individuals is a cut-throat backstabber -- and knows that everyone else in that gang is the same.  So for ass-protection alone, you can be sure Rumsfeld got Bushit's signature on an authorization.

          Bushit avoided the question because he didn't want to lie against proof which exists and would prove him a liar.
           

          A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. -- Mark Twain

          by jnagarya on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 12:18:44 AM PDT

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      •  On p. 24 of Richard Clarke's book (4.00)
        On the evening of 9/11 in the White House:

        When, later in the discussion, Secretary Rumsfeld noted that international law allowed the use of force only to prevent future attacks and not for retribution, Bush nearly bit his head off.  "I don't care what the international lawyers say, we are going to kick some ass."

    •  No direct evidence that Bush gave an order (4.00)
      After WW II we hung several Japanese Generals for war crimes committed by their troops, even though the Generals were unaware of the crimes and could not likely have known of them.

      The precedent is there.

      One of the jobs performed by commanders in war is the job of designated scapegoat. It is supposed to keep them on their toes and prevent "Plausible Deniability" issues. Anyone who has ever served on active duty as a commissioned officer is aware of that. That is a big difference between military officers and civilian managers. The rules are different. Bush spent nearly two years on active duty getting trained as an interceptor pilot. He knows the rules, or should know them.

      That job description, scapegoat, includes the Commander in Chief. It is part of command.

      •  It is unlikely (none)
        Hitler personally murdered by his own hand Jews in Warsaw, or in any of the myriad concentration camps, etc.

        Nonetheless, he would have been found guilty for those war crimes.

        And how many would insist that, if he didn't know, then ignorance is excuse?

        The law doesn't say that.  The person who gives the unlawful order, even if through surrogates, is as responsible for the consequences of the order as for the order.

        A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. -- Mark Twain

        by jnagarya on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 05:21:14 PM PDT

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