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View Diary: Sanchez Approved Torture; White House May Be Linked to Decision (169 comments)

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  •  But the media IS the crux of it. (none)
    The media isn't going to attack Bush, they just wont.  Not the WaPo or the NYT and certainly not the corporate media cable news.  

    You said,

    "Some people below have suggested that the media is too timid or stupid or committed to "even-handedness" to call the techniques approved by Sanchez and Justice and Albert Gonzalez illegal.

    That's not true."

    But you never cited anything showing otherwise.  Where are the reports that call the White House activities "illegal"?  There are none.  They don't even call anyone of the Bush administration a liar, even when they clearly contradict verifiable facts.

    For the media to open this "scandal" up will take some hard-hitting reporting the likes of which America hasn't seen since Watergate.  Short of such reporting Americans will not recognize this institutionalized torture for what it is, a violation of the Geneva Conventions and thus, a violation of the US constitution.  Even if this interpretation somehow became the dominant meme, it's not clear that Americans would care.  The last time a president subverted the US constitution the public was so outraged that they elected his VP and coconspirator as president.  Even with Watergate, much of the public would have been satisfied if Nixon was merely censured or forced to make a public apology.  

    If new photos were to come out showing new and different methods of torture, then all bets are off, but until then, I just don't see much public outrage.  Americans don't care about memos or orders, they want sleazy photos and stained dresses.

    "And Orwell's hell, a terror era coming through. But this little brother's watching you too" -Zack de la Rocha, Voice Of The Voiceless

    by Subterranean on Sun Jun 13, 2004 at 11:21:34 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Bush sucks (none)
      You make some good points.  But you are suffering from a trench mentality.  You have taken too much fire for too long.

      I'll start with an obvious point.  If Reagan had had a 45% approval rating when Iran-Contra hit he would have been impeached.  Reagan was spared because he was so popular the Dems didn't want to fight.

      Clinton would have been convicted and removed if he had a 45% approval and it had been an election year.

      Now both of them were facing a more hostile Congress than Bush, that is true.

      But if you think Tom DeLay doesn't realize that he can say "boo" and put his puppet Hastert in the oval office, then you don't know DeLay.

      No the difference this time is that this is a clear violation of law.

      Reagan was willing to sell his underlings down the river to save his ass.  And the Dems were willing to go along with it.

      Clinton could rely on the ambiguity in proving perjury and the rather low level of his crime.

      But Bush can do neither.  The crime is a crime, and not only have the NY Times and Wash Post said so explicitly THIS WEEK, but so did Bush Sr.'s chief of staff.

      No phalanx of Repubs are going on TV to justify this crap.  Ashcroft is basically in contempt of Congress.

      But the KEY is not the media but the heavy players in the GOP.  They can make themselves President.  And they want to limit the damage so they don't lose power.

      Bush is utterly fucked.

      "Black folks voting for the Republican Party is like a bunch of chickens voting for Col. Sanders!"- JC Watts father

      by BooMan23 on Sun Jun 13, 2004 at 11:34:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Frist/Pataki Ticket (none)
      This is from Newsweek and it spells out exactly why we will not be facing Bush/Cheney, but Frist/Pataki

      Indeed, one reason the prison abuse scandal won't go away--two months after gruesome photos were published worldwide--is that a long paper trail of memos and directives from inside the administration has emerged, often leaked by those who disagreed with rougher means of questioning.

      Last week the White House dismissed news accounts of one such memo, an explosive August 2002 brief from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel disclosed by The Washington Post.

      The memo, drafted by former OLC lawyer John Yoo, has been widely criticized for seeming to flout conventions against torture. It defends most interrogation methods short of severe, intentionally inflicted pain and permanent damage.

      White House officials told reporters that such abstract legal reasoning was insignificant and did not reflect the president's orders. But NEWSWEEK has learned that Yoo's August 2002 memo was prompted by CIA questions about what to do with a top Qaeda captive, Abu Zubaydah, who had turned uncooperative.

      And it was drafted after White House meetings convened by George W. Bush's chief counsel, Alberto Gonzales, along with Defense Department general counsel William Haynes and David Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney's counsel, who discussed specific interrogation techniques, says a source familiar with the discussions. Among the methods they found acceptable: "water-boarding," or dripping water into a wet cloth over a suspect's face, which can feel like drowning; and threatening to bring in more-brutal interrogators from other nations.

      "Black folks voting for the Republican Party is like a bunch of chickens voting for Col. Sanders!"- JC Watts father

      by BooMan23 on Sun Jun 13, 2004 at 11:57:45 PM PDT

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    •  The Washington Post (none)
      and NY Times have described the tortures as being illegal.

      Same about the outrageous contents of the memo/es.

      By contrast, in order to believe your assertion, we have to pretend that the memo/es aren't being reported on because the media doesn't think they're newsworthy.

      Actually, of course, they do consider them newsworthy.  And why is that?  Because they are violations of the GCs, etc.  Violations are illegalities.

      A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. -- Mark Twain

      by jnagarya on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 01:49:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I hope you guys are right (none)
        It's true that I've become very disenchanted with politics, and more importantly, I just don't have any confidence in the ability of Americans to differentiate right from wrong, and to support an appropriate consequence for those who do wrong.  I just don't see Americans as being very intelligent, as having many values, or as even caring about their own government.   Just look at the troglodytes they elect to office!  

        Well I hope you guys are right. BooMan, your posts are inspiring reading, they have a very infectious optimism.  I need to check out more articles and see if maybe my despondence is clouding my outlook.  

        "And Orwell's hell, a terror era coming through. But this little brother's watching you too" -Zack de la Rocha, Voice Of The Voiceless

        by Subterranean on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 03:33:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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