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View Diary: 'We Want the Whole World To Know About Us' (213 comments)

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  •  Expulsions and massacres are crimes. (6+ / 0-)

    This doesn't change whether it's committed against Arabs or Jews.

    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

    by callmecassandra on Sat May 12, 2007 at 08:15:37 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  They chose war not peace. (3+ / 1-)
      Recommended by:
      Paul in Berkeley, another American, jhritz
      Hidden by:
      Diaries

      The Nakba is a consequence of their actions.

      President of the Elders of Zion Chapter 112

      by Pumpkinlove on Sat May 12, 2007 at 08:25:31 AM PDT

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      •  I'll keep saying this PL (6+ / 0-)

        Expulsions and massacres are crimes. Period. End of Story. No sequel. No part deux. No mitigation. No justification. No rationalization. No leniency.

        The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

        by callmecassandra on Sat May 12, 2007 at 08:35:28 AM PDT

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      •  A partial truth. Surely not TR material. (0+ / 0-)

        Arab rejection of partition in the form of an attempt, first, to prevent Israel from coming into existence and, then, to destroy it, surely was a necessary condition for the creation of the Palestinian Arab refugees.

        But, IMHO, it was not a sufficient condition. Although Israel went to war with the intention of defending itself against a threatened genocidal attack, not with the intention of expelling Arab citizens of Mandatory Palestine, Benny Morris, among others, has demonstrated that, on many occasions, Israelis did act with such an intention. For reasons that I have discussed elsewhere, however, a "return" to Israel is not a reasonable solution to the resulting problem.

        Uprated to counter the ratings abuse.

        Al Gore should be president.

        by another American on Sat May 12, 2007 at 02:48:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Was the intention... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sofia

          ...to have a Jewish majority state?

          If so, how could that come about without expulsions?

          The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

          by callmecassandra on Sat May 12, 2007 at 04:33:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Mass immigration of so-called Displaced Persons, (0+ / 0-)

            that is, survivors of the Shoah (Holocaust) almost immediately would have given Israel within the 1947 borders a substantial Jewish majority. Any immigration of Jews from Muslim countries would have solidified that majority further. Expulsions were unnecessary and, as Benny Morris also documents, not planned.

            Al Gore should be president.

            by another American on Sat May 12, 2007 at 07:25:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not really (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              callmecassandra

              Between 1947-49 only about 125,000 Holocaust survivors immigrated to Palestine/Israel.  That still wouldn't have given the Jewish state a stable enough majority.  In addition the expulsions of Palestinians by Zionist forces began before the arrival of Jews that fled/were expelled from Arab countries.

              •  Immigration statistics (0+ / 0-)

                suggest otherwise. A pdf from the Central Bureau of Statistics of Israel is available here. For the period 1948, i.e., the creation of the State, through 1951, total immigration to  Israel was 687,624, of whom  332,802 came from Europe. If, as you did, one chooses to start in 1947, the number presumably would be greater. If one is assuming an international regime that practices the principle of everyone being free to leave their country, then we can assume there would have been a very significant immigration from the USSR.

                In sum, the existence of a Jewish majority was not in question. Benny Morris has shown that the Yishuv entered the conflict expecting that the Arab population would remain and not planning mass expulsions.

                There are many other (much more intentional) examples of population exchanges and transfers more-or-less contemporary to 1948 where most reasonable people recognize that the solution does not include a restoration of the status quo ante. A few examples would include India-Pakistan and the various ethnic German refugees into the two Germanies after World War II.

                Al Gore should be president.

                by another American on Sun May 13, 2007 at 04:41:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The relevent period is between 1947-49.. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  callmecassandra

                  ..(partition through the war), unless you believe the Yishuv or the new state of Israel could insure those future immigration figures, or even insure the outcome of the war. In addition it would have extremely diffucult for the new state to keep close to a million Palestinians under martial law until 1966, as opposed to the hundred thousand that remained in Israel and were kept under martial law until 1966.

                  If you link directly to the PDF (not just the Hebrew version of the home page of Israel's CBS) in English, I'd be happy to take a look at it. Do you dispute the approx. 125,000 number?

                •  Oh, and Benny Morris.. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  callmecassandra

                  A few quotes from his interview with Ari Shavit titled "Survival of the Fittest?", Ha'aretz, January, 2004, here and here.

                  There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide—the annihilation of your people—I prefer ethnic cleansing.

                  That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on.

                  [..]

                  From April 1948, Ben-Gurion is projecting a message of transfer. There is no explicit order of his in writing, there is no orderly comprehensive policy, but there is an atmosphere of [population] transfer. The transfer idea is in the air. The entire leadership understands that this is the idea. The officer corps understands what is required of them. Under Ben-Gurion, a consensus of transfer is created.

                  He understood that there could be no Jewish state with a large and hostile Arab minority in its midst. There would be no such state. It would not be able to exist. [...] If he had not done what he did, a state would not have come into being. [...] Without the uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here.

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