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View Diary: IMPEACH: The fault is not in our stars, but in ourselves... (235 comments)

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  •  I've given you facts (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    scrutinizer

    you just don't like any of them. 49 Republicans in Congress. Every single one of them has an absurdly high record of voting with the President's position on legislation. When given the opportunity to buck the president on the War in Iraq, an unmitigated disaster with 28% support, only 2 took advantage of the opportunity even though the public is screaming mad at them. Increasing the minimum wage, another piece of legislation with very high support, they filibustered instead of supporting. They were ready to wipe out 2 centuries of tradition to eliminate the judicial filibuster so they could confirm the President's crazy-ass judges.

    While we're playing this game, why don't you give me your evidence that such a thing is possible, instead of just your opinion that they'll magically wake up one day and decide they love impeachment.

    I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

    by AnnArborBlue on Sun May 13, 2007 at 02:26:45 PM PDT

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    •  I don't claim FACT, YOU do (4+ / 0-)

      My only claim is that if we work hard it is possible.

      You are the one presenting your opinion of WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE AS FACT.

      I suggest you rethink that tactic.

      Do you have any arguments against impeachment OTHER than your opinion of how 49 individuals will act in the future?

      Did you predict the Senate win? If not, your prognostication skills are not welcome.

      •  I wrote a diary (0+ / 0-)

        a week before the election entitled "Schumer v. Dole; why we're going to win", that someone asked me to change to "why we can win" so it wasn't considered bad karma.

        I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

        by AnnArborBlue on Sun May 13, 2007 at 02:35:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  huh? (5+ / 0-)

          What does that have to do with our convo? Why the evasion?

          Did you predict the Senate win?

          If not, please do not present your prognostication as fact.

          DO you have anything else to say (besides psychic prediction) about impeachment....any facts to back up your opinion that it won't happen?

          Or do you concede it is possible?

          If you concede, I would ask you to kindly stop trying to negatively influence opinion by stating your cynical  opinion as fact.

          •  I've given you many facts (0+ / 0-)

            that it won't happen. You just choose not to take them as facts because you don't like any of them. Facts:
            you need 17 Republican votes at least (16+one to offset Lieberman).
            That's assuming Democrats like the Nelsons, Prior, Landrieu etc. vote for impeachment (a questionable assumption to say the least.
            Republicans in Congress are unbelievably unified about even the most minor and inconsequential of issues
            Republicans held ranks even when it came to a President with 28% approval and a war not much above that
            impeaching the president means impeaching the standard-bearer of the party
            As Nixon showed, when the standard-bearer falls, the party falls
            Want me to continue with my facts? Or do you have some reason that none of those count?

            I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

            by AnnArborBlue on Sun May 13, 2007 at 02:51:23 PM PDT

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    •  You think Hagel won't vote for impeachment? (6+ / 0-)

      Or the 5-10 or so Repubs who are at risk for losing their seats in '08? Especially after all the evidence comes out in formal form and the public is for impeachment?

      Well, maybe they won't, which will just make it easier to gain seats in '08. Either way, done right, impeachment is a winner for the Dems.

      You're not actually of the opinion that it would backfire politically, on that whole "witch hunt" premise that is simply laughable, or that it'll be like Clinton all over again?

      "There's no doubt in my mind that the dialogue here in Washington strengthens our democracy. Period." -- General Peter Pace, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

      by kovie on Sun May 13, 2007 at 03:22:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Do you Want MY Opinion? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kovie

        You are BOTH right.  

        Listen to what Ann Arbor is saying, RIGHT NOW, there is no chance for impeachment. Further, unless it starts getting REAL HOT in the hearings, there is little chance you will find 2/3 majority in the Senate.

        BUT, it seems that "every tree we [the Dems] bark up into has a cat" (I think Harry Reid said that, sorry if wrong).  What can we surmise will happen when the Hearings start REALLY getting serious?

        What CAN the Senate stomach?

        BTW- I respectfully advise that Reasonable Debate be encouraged instead of discouraged.  IMHO, that is why the Repug are where they are right now.

        •  If I wanted YOUR opinion (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Poor Grunt

          then I would have interjected myself into an ongoing discussion here, which is open to any and all to join or ignore. Of course, this is exactly what I did, so obviously, I was implicitely and am now actually interested in your opinion. ;-)

          But I don't get the impression that AAB is merely saying that impeachment right now is impossible--which I agree with--but rather that it will never be possible--which I do not agree with. I was projecting forward to show what I view as the very real possibility of impeachment, if the current process proceeds as it has.

          Clearly, for that to happen, there would have to be a turning point, in terms of some irrefutible and monumental "smoking gun" evidence emerging, and that has not really happened yet. We have plenty of evidence that indicates that Bush & Cheney have been up to no good, but none that as of yet proves it.

          But if such evidence did emerge, beyond any reasonable doubt--and I feel fairly sure that it will--then I believe that the entire situation will be transformed instantly, and calls for impeachment will start to come from all corners and be very hard if not impossible to silence. It will snowball, and I believe ultimately be initiated.

          One of the biggest mistakes that people make is to project forward based on the recent past, present, and what can currently be seen. Events in politics, as in everything, do not proceed in linear fashion, and what applied in the past might not necessarily apply again tomorrow. Just look at how we won the election last fall. Until a few months prior to it, pundits were still predicting Dems gains but not taking over either house. And then one scandal after another hit, and the whole dynamic shifted our way.

          I think that this is precisely what will happen with impeachment. Hearings and investigations will proceed, with various bumps along the way--mostly in the form of administrative stonewalling. And then something will give--someone flips, or makes a fatal mistake, or some intrepid reporter comes out with a devastating revelation, etc.--and BOOM, everything has changed overnight, and the old rules no longer apply.

          I'm not promising that this will lead to impeachment, but anyone who makes firm predictions about the next 18 months vis a vis impeachment is just blowing smoke. It might happen, it might not happen, but to say that it WON'T happen is just silly.

          As the saying goes, shit happens, and I expect a lot of it to happen over that period.

          "There's no doubt in my mind that the dialogue here in Washington strengthens our democracy. Period." -- General Peter Pace, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

          by kovie on Sun May 13, 2007 at 05:43:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Where you err - (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elwior

      You think that the repubs will be pleased as punch to go down with 28% solution Bush in 2008.

      You think wrong.

      Now is still to early for the repubs to jump off of ship Bushie, but wait, that is coming.

      •  Will it Stay <28% (0+ / 0-)

        If you start impeachment too soon?

        I think you need something that people could not get their heads around.

        People could get their heads around Clinton Zipper Problem, even though their were some people who honestly had a BIG problem with his dishonesty under oath.

        Consequently, Bill had a lot of simpathy.

        I am a bad judge though.  Regarding the present situation, my head lost its elasticity some time ago

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