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View Diary: Body armor about to hit the fan - Part I (Updated w/NBC info) (209 comments)

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  •  Wonderful diary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    occams hatchet, lamzdotes

    I would be furious if the military were putting soldiers in bad armor because of greed, but I realized after reading your comment that I don't know about all of this to evaluate the arguments on behalf of the Dragon Skin armor, either.

    The more armor experts who comment on this the better.

    •  That's just the point. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sclminc, Captain Infidel, lamzdotes

      Let's get the testing into unbiased hands. Running tests on Interceptor's leading competitor, and then, a couple of months later, being hired as a vice president by the manufacturer of Interceptor, hardly qualifies one as "unbiased," at least in my book.

      As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. - Justice William O. Douglas

      by occams hatchet on Thu May 17, 2007 at 12:17:10 PM PDT

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      •  I agree (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        occams hatchet

        The fact he was hired does not suprise me.  I and others who work for me have consulted many companies/manufacturers that produce products in our field.  Some we test on request.

        The question is this:  Was he offered a job before/during trials to attempt to fix the tests  Or was he offered a job, AFTER the test.

        "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."- Vegetius

        by Captain Infidel on Thu May 17, 2007 at 06:09:26 PM PDT

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        •  Regardless, (0+ / 0-)

          it's a violation of 41 USC 423 on its face.

          Unless they're not paying him a penny; then it would be allowed.

          More on this in the next installment.

          As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. - Justice William O. Douglas

          by occams hatchet on Thu May 17, 2007 at 11:57:36 PM PDT

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          •  True (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            occams hatchet

            but the major conflict here seems to be that the vests (IBA and Dragon Skin) were tested to "lower" standards than normal for this special test.  I don't know anything about armor testing, but if true, that concerns me.

            A guy being hired after leaving the military is no big deal.  Even being offered is no big deal.  I get offers all the time.  It's even OK to accept a job... as long as you are not getting paid you are ok.  With this there was another twist... he was testing for a large government procurement.  It matters to me when, in comparison to the testing, he was offered the job and when he accepted the job.  If after testing, no big deal.  It would not surprise me they hired him.  He has military experience, in armor development, and he believes in the product (important factor).

            If BEFORE, then there is a whole host of questions that need to be asked.  Did he take money or was he pressured in a way to affect testing?  This case falls into what we were always taught as young officers.  "Avoid the appearence of impropriety" because looking unethical to others is just as damaging for a leader as actually being unethical.

            "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."- Vegetius

            by Captain Infidel on Fri May 18, 2007 at 06:18:31 AM PDT

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      •  interesting articles from last year (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        occams hatchet, lamzdotes

        17 May 2006

        Notice the dates:

        The 30 production-representative vests will be delivered to H.P. White in Street, Md., for ballistic testing. HP White is the only National Institute of Justice-certified,independent, ballistic-testing laboratory in the United States capable of conducting the complete First Article Test. This is the same facility and ballistic testing standards used on the body armor currently fielded to Soldiers.

        May 19, 2006


        After three days of testing this week, the Army determined the body armor does not meet military specifications, said the official, who would not specify which tests the armor failed.

        Apparently there has been some challenges to the quality/standards of this (and the IBA/E-SAPPI Armor) testing.  Interesting history here:

        According to Allan D. Bain, the inventor of DragonSkin, the armor failed because it did not observe "the Article One testing environmental conditioning protocol, which calls for the armor to withstand 165 degrees F for 6 hours," thus the adhesive failed.[13]

         Might explain the following:

        From a Military/LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) Only forum on in October 2006.  if you are military/LEO you can go there and register.  It is a very interesting thread.  Many think the concept is great... a few don't like them.  Only a couple have actually used it.

        Dragonskin is promising but the reality of the DOD test was that the vest suffered disk migration. In other words, the disks moved. That makes holes in your protection. Holes are bad...

        The company has since addressed the issue according to the owner but I think that the concept will have to be thoroughly tested and proven by multiple agencies on paper before I believe it.

        I agree that plates are old technology but right now plates are the only proven protection out there.

        There is a good discussion on the topic at Lightfighter where some of the DOD folks weighed in.

        Same User a few posts down:

        The Dragon Skin I was issued was anything but flexible. It felt like it was about a foot thick as well.

        They ended up being floor mats in the vehicles.

        Until they can figure out this "disk migration" issue and explain how angled hits from the sides don't go under the scales, there are going to be issues. Neat concept but it needs work.

        Who this guy is, I don't know.  I take it that he is a cop with military (or experience overseas with military).  How he knows this about the testing, I don't know.

        I tried to answer previous questions and give what info I could on both sides.  

        "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."- Vegetius

        by Captain Infidel on Thu May 17, 2007 at 07:54:33 PM PDT

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