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View Diary: Obama joins Brownback (yep, the nutjob) (170 comments)

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  •  Iran's military isn't weak. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    snout

    Much stronger than Saddam's was.  Much larger, too.

    -5.88, -7.49 "Will you stand up for an energy policy not dictated by the profits of big oil companies?"- John Edwards

    by cjallen on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:29:51 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Quality vs. quantity (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jxg

      There is no modern air force, very limited number of modern tanks (and those are useless if there is no air cover)..

      A very weak army.

      "I have a dream" King Jr.

      "I have a book deal" Perves Musharraf

      by allmost liberal european on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:31:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, Iran is developing modern armored (0+ / 0-)

        vehicles of their own, they even have MiG-29s that they captured from Saddam, they have attack helicopters, they have modern equipment.  Only their old American equipment is in poor shape, but some of it they've fixed up with heavy modification.

        -5.88, -7.49 "Will you stand up for an energy policy not dictated by the profits of big oil companies?"- John Edwards

        by cjallen on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:35:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Heh (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jxg, jkennerl

          Couple Mig-29's is not going to be a threat. Attack helicopters are dead on arrival, if there is no air force to cover for them.

          Do you have any idea of the US air force capabilities?

          "I have a dream" King Jr.

          "I have a book deal" Perves Musharraf

          by allmost liberal european on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:36:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Haha (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            allmost liberal european

            Yeah i don't think a country that can use lasers from space to blow up buildings is going to worry much about a couple MIGs. Just my guess...

            Bush spent his political capital like a sailor on shore leave, and we all got an STD.

            by jkennerl on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:42:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

            I used to study tactics, strategy, hardware, and geopolitics, until domestic politics overwhelmed me a few years ago.
            Iran has a relatively modern military (Mig-29s are fuckin sweet, and that's not all they've got).  Ours is being eroded in Iraq, and if we used airstrikes against Iran, they could use their ground forces to invade parts of Iraq.  We don't have enough bombs to use our overwhelming air capabilities to wipe out their ground forces.  Besides, there are enough Shia in the Gulf states (where our support sites and air bases are) to cause a regional war that could devastate us.  We have no military options with Iran.

            -5.88, -7.49 "Will you stand up for an energy policy not dictated by the profits of big oil companies?"- John Edwards

            by cjallen on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:43:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Then we use diplomacy and economic incentives (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Elvis meets Nixon

              To DISCOURAGE acquiring nuclear technology for bombs.

              Sounds like common sense to me.

              Bush spent his political capital like a sailor on shore leave, and we all got an STD.

              by jkennerl on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:45:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                inclusiveheart

                Excpet that we have no proof that they have a weapons program.  We need reconciliation.  We need to talk to them.  But we shouldn't be antagonistic.  We need a lot more carrot, and a lot less stick.

                -5.88, -7.49 "Will you stand up for an energy policy not dictated by the profits of big oil companies?"- John Edwards

                by cjallen on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:47:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  But what do you need? A polaroid? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dufffbeer

                  Ahmadinejad goes on Iranian TV say that Iran wants nuclear power and nuclear technology nearly once a week, they don't allow inspectors, and they want to wipe Israel off the map, as they assert over and over again.

                  Maybe there is proof, and it's classified. Did you consider that?

                  Bush spent his political capital like a sailor on shore leave, and we all got an STD.

                  by jkennerl on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:50:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes. But I don't consider him a threat, (0+ / 0-)

                    as I've already said.  No leader of a developing nation is stupid enough to use a nuke.  That would be enough for even France and Germany and half of the world to join us in attacking them in response.  I don't think he doesn't know that.  Do you really htink he's crazier or stupider than the leader of North Korea?

                    -5.88, -7.49 "Will you stand up for an energy policy not dictated by the profits of big oil companies?"- John Edwards

                    by cjallen on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:56:38 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  There is a totally different track here that (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jkennerl

                    no one here in the US who wants to go to war with Iran talks about - that is that China and Russia are funding the Iranian nuclear program so that they can get their oil.  Lots of carrot there and little stick.  The Iranians are apparently more addicted to oil than we are and they are building nuclear plants as a partial substitute to their problem so that they can sell the oil for a high price on the open market.

                    What do you think BushCo's angle on that proposition would be?  Destroy the program so they can be the ones selling to a fuel starved China and to Russia.

                    I don't think Obama knows what he is doing at all here and it is frustrating.  Creating more economic need will only speed up Iran's nuclear program and creating more antagonism will only increase Iran's desire to take their energy program to a weapons program.  It is not a smart strategy - but that's no surprise - Brownback supports it.

              •  Exactly (0+ / 0-)

                I have heard Edwards talk about how he'd help provide them with nuclear energy in exchange for a halt to their weapons program.

            •  The US does not have enough bombs? (0+ / 0-)

              Nukes, hello?

              "I have a dream" King Jr.

              "I have a book deal" Perves Musharraf

              by allmost liberal european on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:48:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  We should use nukes? (0+ / 0-)

                Now that's crazy.

                -5.88, -7.49 "Will you stand up for an energy policy not dictated by the profits of big oil companies?"- John Edwards

                by cjallen on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:50:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  and lot of people are crazy (0+ / 0-)

                  All options are on the table, also nukes. Ask any major dem politician.

                  Impeachment is not on the tabble :)

                  "I have a dream" King Jr.

                  "I have a book deal" Perves Musharraf

                  by allmost liberal european on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:51:56 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  But a first strike? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dufffbeer

                    Tactical on the battlefield?  Against their cities?  Against their nuclear sites?  What?  I don't see how any of it could be justified.  Our use of nukes would also bring international condemnation.  We have the right weapons to take out their sites without nukes, but it would bring a horrile retaliation with conventional weapons.  Our problem is that our military is being destroyed by the occupation, and our use of bombs is already stretching the limits of supply.  We don't have a military option.

                    -5.88, -7.49 "Will you stand up for an energy policy not dictated by the profits of big oil companies?"- John Edwards

                    by cjallen on Sat May 19, 2007 at 03:02:46 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Yeah, what do you mean? (0+ / 0-)

                Are you saying the US should use nukes against Iran? They have the conventional ordinance to do the job, I suspect.

                Bush spent his political capital like a sailor on shore leave, and we all got an STD.

                by jkennerl on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:52:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  but Iran does have (0+ / 0-)

            lots and lots of various ranged missles and could really stir some shit up if they ever needed to launch them....not to mention ultimate control of the Straits...

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