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View Diary: Feminisms: One Is Too Many (Updated) (308 comments)

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  •  Right now, (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marrael, Elise, Ice Blue, buhdydharma, jessical

    there are Iraqis pretending that this murder was wrong.

    And I suspect there are a lot of Iraqis who find this horrifying and would work against it if they didn't have a hell of a lot of other things to worry about right now.

    What do Republicans and cockroaches have in common? -- Shine a light on them and see.

    by kismet on Wed May 23, 2007 at 07:59:49 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  yeahbut (9+ / 0-)

      It's still part of Shariah.

      Which is completely unacceptable to me.

    •  For women to have any prayer of equality (8+ / 0-)

      in the Middle East, there will have to be an imposition of a human rights agenda from outside, I would venture.  Not sure that'll happen.

      What a shame that half of humanity is convinced it is the weaker, less spiritually pure half.  Did we fool the patriarchs, or did they fool us?

      •  not fooled (3+ / 0-)


        In a world where the patriarchy CREATED masculine warfare, then used the EXCUSE of masculine warfare to create the false paradigm that women needed to be protected ......from masculine warfare.....when masculine warfare is TOTALLY is a totally unnecessary and chosen model. It is a cruel self-feeding, self-fostering behavior pattern that created a false need, that grew into a false society...and we are reaping the fruits of that bullying and deception in every aspect of our lives now.

        As I say elsewhere, it is the fundamental wellspring of all our ills. Along with the also false acquisitional greed/need paradigm.

        Wherin we must take from others to have what we need. (when in truth there is plenty for all in a cooperative model vs. the current patriarchal competitive model) That leads to the conquering mentality. These, IMO are the major flaws of our current reality. Both based on male domination.... and all simply because males have bigger muscles.

        An evolutionary level leap is what we need...and what we are on the cusp/balance point of now. Success of OUR ideology swings it one way. Success of their ideology the other.

        Interesting times.

      •  oddly enough, I disagree (10+ / 0-)

        When thinking about this, remember that the majority of 9/11 hijackers were upper-middle class Saudi Arabians, educated in madrasssas and whose media content was controlled by the House of Saud funded Wahhabi sect of Islam.

        The public schools and seminaries all over the world that teach extremist Muslim religion/ideology that requires sharia law and condones honor killings are by and large, funded by the Middle East oil monarchies, among which the Saudis are at the top of the tree.

        They fund this because in exchange, the clerics give them political legitimacy and also teach that the problems of the Middle East are caused by Western "infidels" with their "evil and immodest women" (which seems to be most of their beef with our lifestyles) and "immorality".

        In the post-oil future, these monarchies will become rich expats anywhere but the Middle East, as the Middle East oil nations are money sinks rather than profit sources without oil. Will they continue to fund this religion after they no longer need it politically?

        What happens when the citizens of the Middle East nations have to compete with the rest of the world with no oil revenue coming and with the money that should have been spent on the kind of infrastructure which makes a nation viable in the bank accounts of their ex-rulers?

        Their options will be to find a way to become a modern technological civilization with the help of "evil infidels" or die as nations and as populations. I don't know of ANY Middle East oil nation that's self-sufficient with respect to food.

        Modern technological civilizations can't afford to suppress the brainpower of over half of their populations by keeping them at home, barefoot, and pregnant.

        This is something that American theocrats don't understand, either.

        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

        by alizard on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:54:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There's a lot of explanatory power there (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marina, Elise, buhdydharma, Pandoras Box

          I want to add, as I mentioned in another comment, that the move to Islamic fundamentalism was in many ways a response to imperialistic pressure.  When confronted with unrelenting racism and exploitation by the west, there was no realistic avenue for entering the modern world with self-respect.  This led to a reaction back to tradition.  I feel this is part of the dynamic you describe.

          If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

          by geomoo on Wed May 23, 2007 at 10:23:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  agreed (6+ / 0-)

            And one thing I didn't make adequately clear. I'm not saying that they have to give up Islam to become a technological civilization.

            IMO, their choices will be to secularize Islam, to allow it to make compromises with reality as Christianity did, or find another religion that permits women to function as full equals in society. Unitarianism. Non-militant atheism. Wicca. FSM. Agnosticism. Something else. Their other option. . . a 13th Century civilization consistent with rigidly prescribed sex roles, and a population consistent with late Middle Ages human and animal-powered civilization in a land that's an ecological disaster area.

            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

            by alizard on Wed May 23, 2007 at 10:41:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What you say makes me think this: (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              marina, Elise, Pandoras Box

              Some of the explanation lies in the environment which thwarts men's ability to function with autonomy and pride, that is in which they suffer second class citizenship.  I think the helplessness engenders fear, which leads to violence.  This can also be seen in the African American communities in America--a heritage of slavery.  When men feel out of control, especially of their ability to freely find an appropriate mate, and to feed and protect their families, they often react badly.  I think a society in which all men are so dispossessed, the conditions exist for the mutually agreed on desperate measures we saw here.  Well, it's a theory, but honestly I have a hard time imagining any reasonable explanation for such behavior.

              If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

              by geomoo on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:05:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  garbage in, garbage out (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                marina, Pandoras Box

                They were taught to believe that honor killing is right, and they did it the first chance they got.

                Frankly, I haven't the slightest interest in what was going through their heads at the time.

                If they are all executed as murderers, officially or unofficially, they'll never do it again, and perhaps others will be discouraged from doing so.

                If there is a certainty in a population that honor killing = death or worse, they'll stop. Or at least stop doing it in front of camphones. And start as soon as whatever authority was punishing them withdraws.

                But the best long-term way to make sure that this doesn't happen is to make sure that nobody is ever taught again that honor killing and other hate crimes against women are a good idea.

                That's culture change, not law enforcement or covert action. The only way I know of to forcibly change a culture quickly is under extreme life and death stress. The sooner there is no longer a market for Middle East oil, the sooner the culture change will take place.

                Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                by alizard on Thu May 24, 2007 at 02:31:06 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  But don't you get it, alizard? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marina, Elise

          I mean, isn't it obvious?

          Women can't THINK!!!!  I mean, SOME of them can, but those ones are perverts and abominations to God's plan!
          Women are intended for making babies and taking care of kids, and that's it!  REALLY!  God told me!  And my dad told me, too!

          (for the totally oblivious, that's snark).

          I was liberal when liberal wasn't cool

          by plf515 on Thu May 24, 2007 at 03:27:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  well, the point of my posting is (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            marina, plf515

            that if Islamic fundamentalists in what are now the "oil countries" in the post-oil world don't learn how to think, they're dead.

            Of course, they aren't the only people in the world with that problem.

            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

            by alizard on Thu May 24, 2007 at 01:23:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Interesting, excellent thesis (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          alizard, Elise, Pandoras Box, geomoo

          and one that offers hope. Lots of interesting comments here, with much food for thought.

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