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View Diary: Oracle opposes $1200 annual H-1b fee for $15,000 scholarships to American engineering students (63 comments)

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  •  Much of the H1-B program is a scam... (11+ / 0-)

    I heard Sanders arguing for his amendment on C-SPAN and he said the program could expand by tripling the number of H1-B's granted...effectively killing even more high paying jobs.

    It always baffles me why some liberals are so willing to support these sorts of measures that completely obliterate the middle class, make expensive college degrees worthless, induce a wage race to the bottom, and in the case of the guest worker program create a permanent underclass of indentured serfs.

    We need immigration reform alright, just not of the kind that floods the labor market with cheap foreign workers willing to take good paying American jobs for a fraction of the salary.

    "People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. They don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible." --J.R.

    by michael1104 on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:17:19 PM PDT

    •  I Always Thought Oracle Was a Scam (5+ / 0-)

      Looked into it when I was a dBase and Clipper programmer.

      My instantaneous impression was similar to the proverbial $600 Pentagon hammer. Everything monetary about it from software costs to training etc. seemed to have the decimal point one place too far to the right.

      Now, as a former sailboat racer, I think Ellison has a knack at the helm.

      But as a combination social ex-hippie and economic FDR New Dealer, I think that helm oughta be cut down in worth by a factor of 10 or so.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:25:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oracle Racing (0+ / 0-)

        Now, as a former sailboat racer, I think Ellison has a knack at the helm.

        True that, but Luna Rossa's always got a place in my heart.

        "The NSA offers exciting work for recent graduates in computer science. Pick up the phone, call your mom, and ask for an application."

        by Scipio on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:29:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I was a grinder... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dkmich, willb48

          ... on a racing yacht that competed on SF Bay when Ellison was learning to sail and before he bought his big boat.

          Knowing a little of his ego and how he treated his workers, it was refreshing to hear a salty captain yelling at Ellison,

          "Damnit! This isn't the office!"

          A lot of the captains expressed some amazement when he raced the Whitbread a few years later.

          But then, Ellison is a former captain now.

          It does seem onerous that he can afford the $60 Million to own Oracle II to race in the America's Cup, (which was defeated in the Louis Vitton race recently and therefore out of the Cup) but can't afford the $1200 for scholarships.

          A Poet is at the same time a force for Solidarity and for Solitude --Pablo Neruda

          by justiceputnam on Wed May 30, 2007 at 12:22:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  You're so funny ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cacophonix, MarketTrustee

      Many American students must compromise their studies by working part time, while foreign students are free to devote 100% of their time in study groups. Others never reach their potential due to the financial realities of attending college today. So instead universities fill these slots with foreign students.

      American students can be helped a lot by adopting better education policies:

      • Fund universal access to pre-K programs
      • Fund free healthcare for young people
      • Reduce class sizes
      • More Education loans (without sharks attached)
      • And yes ... scholarships

      But this does not have to be done by creating a strawman enemy -- the study-group inhabiting, nerdy, foreign student, who's being handed American dollars to take away American jobs.

      • University admissions are largely merit based but do have a bias in favor of American students.
      • Foreign students are forbidden from working for more than 20 hours, and from off-campus employment.
      • Foreign students are not eligible for most grants and loans at a typical university.

      So, please, not another us-versus-them.

      In fact, a better idea would be to auction off H1-Bs and use that money to pay school teachers, improve teacher quality, fund science/math education and create smaller class sizes.

      Under the current 2 Americas system, by the time they get to college, many American students from the second America are not worth the 15K scholarship!

      •  oops (0+ / 0-)

        Not yu, michael104. Was meant to be addressed to kimberry. Sorry!

      •  The real problem (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bronxist, sdgeek

        is with medium and high school education.

        Here in WA we've had a controversy over the WASL test. I found the WASL math test particularly interesting. Look at the following two links. The first is a WASL practice test. The second is a sample 10th grade Math exam from the CBSE board of India, which is the dominant nation-wide standard in India.

        WASL test
        CBSE test

        The two tests seem to have parity on statistics, somewhat on probability, but in algebra and trigonometry the CBSE test is far harder. There are no questions on the WASL test that would be hard for someone who prepares for the CBSE test.

        This is born out by the experiences of recent immigrants from India who have children of medium or high school age - they all find the US schools too easy.

        I've said this before on DKos - but do you think a student who manages to pass the WASL test is equipped to compete in college with a student from India who passed the CBSE test? Do you think a student who gets 100% on the WASL test, smart though he/she might be, is well equipped to compete with a student who aced the CBSE test?

        Under the current 2 Americas system, by the time they get to college, many American students from the second America are not worth the 15K scholarship!

        Exactly. And I don't want to get into the meat of the WASL controversy - the governor (Gregoire) here removed the WASL as a graduation requirement, which means WA schools are graduating students who couldn't get a pass mark on the WASL test - about whose fault this is. The schools don't have enough money, not enough support from parents, students so busy trying to be popular that they don't have time to be smart, or maybe teachers ... whatever the problem, the fact is that many American High School grads do not, can not compete well in the world. That's the real injustice, not H-1Bs or foreign students.

        •  Yup ... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cacophonix, sdgeek

          You're absolutely right.

          And further, it's ludicrous to compare the top 2% of Chinese/Korean/Indian students who come to the US against someone in the bottom 50% of the American system.

          If we did an apples to apples comparison (top 2% against the top 2% from Asia) I would stand behind the American students anyday. The top tier system in the USA teaches far more creative thinking and breadth than many of the Asian systems.

          The bottom half of Asia is massively illiterate, where again, the semi-literate bottom of USA might be better.

          But the potatoes to apples comparison across different nations is ridiculous!!

          •  this isn't survivor game (0+ / 0-)

            This is America where we invest in America....and the American people.

            Where do you get off claiming that US graduates from the top universities IN THE WORLD are somehow inferior to the "top 2%" of foreigners?  That's ludicrous for it is the education and training and these schools have already flunked on anyone who cannot cut the mustard.

            This is known that US universities are in the top 1000 of all universities in the world..

            so trying to denigrate and insult Americans just doesn't fly on an AMERICAN political blog!


            by BobOak on Wed May 30, 2007 at 02:15:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Top universities... (0+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              Hidden by:

              are in every country.

              So are not-so-top universities.

              And, let's face it, a solid Stanford or MIT graduate is not likely to be displaced by an H-1B, no matter what school he came from.

              The unemployed H-1Bs are more like from Laptop Training Solutions or Microskills (two schools in San Diego. I picked two defunct examples to avoid naming names, but many current schools fall into the same group).

              Or they started their career decades ago and never upgraded their skills.

              Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz: true American heroes.

              by sdgeek on Wed May 30, 2007 at 03:20:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  If you could read ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              I'll excuse you from the top 2 percentile - LOL.

              • I said that the top 2 percentile of American high-school graduates were superior to the top two percentile from Asia.

              If we did an apples to apples comparison (top 2% against the top 2% from Asia) I would stand behind the American students anyday.

              "Stand behind", as in, "support" or "back"! This is underlined by the following sentence.

              • And yes, it is well known that US Universities are in the top tier - except maybe Bob Jones and Liberty University.

              Even if I'd said the opposite, no need to get all nationalistic on me here. Like, don't get your flag themed panties in a bunch.

              The cream of America and of Asia are fantastic young people, who have made good use of their opportunities and privileges.

              The problem that brings us together to Kos is the huge underclass in both societies.

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