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View Diary: Body armor: The fog of war profiteering (159 comments)

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  •  Actually occams hatchet has done a hatchet (0+ / 0-)

    job.  Time and time again he goes with Pinancles sensationalism. In vokes the troops and slanders individuals in the process.  At first I thought boy he really is interested in this issue.  But then reading his post he does the sensational and picks and choose the information.

    How about everyone take a minute a watch the full hearing testimony of the Body Armour.  But remember this.

    1. Pinancle never, not once submitted their product for standarized testing by the military until after they started their PR campaign on how they were being screwed in the process.  AGain not once after multiple request did they
    1. Finally when the submitted their product (after major changes) for testing to the approved, authorized lab (and all you people who think they should use some kind of independent lab is crap - there is a reason why we have specific labs for testing of specific equipment) IT FAILED.  FAILED NOT ONCE, NOT TWICE BUT FIVE FUC**** TIMES!.

    So instead of the CEO and Pinancle go back and improve their product they have started a slander / campaign against people who are part of the decision making process.  I wish I could do that in the commercial world.  When I do not present a qualified product to my customer and they denign me a contract then I going to go to the news and tell everybody that my customers organization and decision makers are evil and out to get me.  Yea that's smart.  

    But Occams hatchet - I have communicated to you all each and everyone of your rants but you have decided to make everyone in the ballistic community evil and out to be these people that are in it for a profit.  You have pissed me off and you wonder why the left has a PR problem with military and government employees.

    Oh and wear is your retaction regarding Colonel Norwood last I check his employment relationship is legal.

    Unleash the potential to make a difference

    by totallynext on Fri Jun 08, 2007 at 09:56:07 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Oh and how about (0+ / 0-)

      paying specific attention to the sworn testimony of the Airforce who did purchase they vest to then found out that Pinancle had falsefied the testing data and claimed that it had been tested.  Can you say False Claims Act????????

      Unleash the potential to make a difference

      by totallynext on Fri Jun 08, 2007 at 09:58:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I was wondering when the apologists (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hannibal, occams hatchet

      would come. So Totallynext, how did you become an expert so fast? Did you Google until you found something you could regurgitate up here? Someone brief you?  The next question is why you are attacking someone who has put a tremendous amount of work in finding a solution to protect the troops?.

      We've seen this many times before. It has  smell about it because this is a progressive website and after all the scandals in the govt and the army along with their contractors you would have us believe that Occam, a well regarded Diarist here,  is putting out a Hatchet job.

      Join California Joe and many of the other apologists for the MIC that have come along and attacked his work. Your post has been seen many times before posted by many authors who mysteriously disappeared . The words may be altered here and there but it's just the same shit on a different day.

      What is your experience in these matters?

      Support the Troops, Impeach Bush
      Oversize Rants Available Overnight at
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      by Dburn on Fri Jun 08, 2007 at 10:21:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If it is SO bad why were troops (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KiaRioGrl79, Hannibal

      specifically requesting it and having family buy it for them? That was before they would get COURT MARTIALED for wearing it.

      One of the soldiers who lost his coveted Dragon Skin is a veteran operator. He reported that his commander expressed deep regret upon issuing his orders directing him to leave his Dragon Skin body armor behind. The commander reportedly told his subordinates that he "had no choice because the orders came from very high up" and had to be enforced, the soldier said. Another soldier's story was corroborated by his mother, who helped defray the $6,000 cost of buying the Dragon Skin, she said.

      The mother of the soldier, who hails from the Providence, Rhode Island area, said she helped pay for the Dragon Skin as a Christmas present because her son told her it was "so much better" than the Interceptor OTV they expected to be issued when arriving in country for a combat tour.

      "He didn't want to use that other stuff," she said. "He told me that if anything happened to him I am supposed to raise hell."

      At the time the orders were issued the two soldiers had already loaded their Dragon Skin body armor onto the pallets being used to air freight their gear into the operational theater, the soldiers said. They subsequently removed it pursuant to their orders.

      Currently nine U.S. generals stationed in Afghanistan are reportedly wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin body armor, according to company spokesman Paul Chopra. Chopra, a retired Army chief warrant officer and 20+-year pilot in the famed 160th "Nightstalkers" Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne), said his company was merely told the generals wanted to "evaluate" the body armor in a combat environment. Chopra said he did not know the names of the general officers wearing the Dragon Skin.

      Pinnacle claims more than 3,000 soldiers and civilians stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan are wearing Dragon Skin body armor, Chopra said. Several months ago DefenseWatch began receiving anecdotal reports from individual soldiers that they were being forced to remove all non-issue gear while in theater, including Dragon Skin body armor, boots, and various kinds of non-issue ancillary equipment.

      Last year the DoD, under severe pressure from Congress, authorized a one-time $1,000 reimbursement to soldiers who had purchased civilian equipment to supplement either inadequate or unavailable equipment they needed for combat operations. At the time there was no restriction on what the soldiers could buy as long as it was specifically intended to offer personal protection or further their mission capabilities while in theater.

      link

      and some info on the weight issue:

      Pinnacle Armor Company, the makers of Dragon Skin body armor, claims their product is so flexible it can be wrapped around a basketball. Soldiers for the Truth Foundation (SFTT) president Roger Charles wore the 26.5-pound full coverage large size Dragon Skin vest for more than four hours during a recent test with only minimal discomfort. This reporter has worn the OTV system for approximately the same length of time and found it uncomfortable, bulky, and restrictive.

      How it holds up to bullets:

      In a test for the History Channel’s military show, "Mail Call", the vest repelled nine rounds of pointed steel ammunition from an AK-47 and 35 rounds of 9 mm, all fired into a 10-by-12-inch configuration on the vest. In "Test Lab", also on the History Channel, the vest withstood a total of 120 rounds, fired from both an AK-47 (7.62 × 39 mm) and MP5 (9 x 19 mm). In another demonstration on the Discovery Channel series "Future Weapons", a Dragon Skin vest withstood numerous rounds from an AK-47, an MP5, and an M4 carbine (5.56 x 45 mm), and a point-blank detonation of an M67 grenade. While the vest was heavily damaged (mainly by the grenade), there was no penetration of the actual armor.

      On December 7, 2006 a demonstrational shoot for the following departments took place on a 10″ x 12″ SOV-2000 Level III panel: Saint Charles Parish Sheriff’s SWAT, Saint John’s Parish Sheriff’s SWAT, Gretna PD, Jefferson Parish Sheriff’s SWAT, LaCruz Parish Sheriff’s SWAT, Ascension Parish Sheriff’s SWAT, Coast Guard Investigative Services, US Navy.

      A total of 17 rounds was fired into the panel without penetration.

      • 3 @ 7.62×51mm Federal Match
      • 3 @ 7.62×39mm Military Ball
      • 3 @ 5.56×45mm M193 Ball
      • 3 @ 5.56×45mm M193 Ball at 45 degrees
      • 2 @ 5.56×45mm M855 Green Tip
      • 2 @ 5.56×45mm Bonded M193
      • 1 @ 7.62×51mm Federal Bonded

      from someone who is in Iraq:

      All the grunts dig my Dragon Skin body armor by Pinnacle and wish they had Dragon Skin.  It fits well and the fit takes a lot of the load off my shoulders which makes it a lot more comfortable.  The flexibility is also nice when traversing walls and rooftops.

      Link

      We must have goals to change the world. Who has the most goals? Edwards 2008 Come see my myspace page, check the profile!!

      by Chaoslillith on Fri Jun 08, 2007 at 11:03:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Great collage of individual reports; however, (0+ / 0-)

        you didn't address the Army's issue of the Dragon Skin withstanding the elements (heat in Iraq). If it delaminates in the heat then it will not protect the occupant.

        Don't get me wrong - I am all for the Soldiers being issued the best equipment available that meets or exceeds the military's standards. The anecdotal stories and History Channel tests are interesting and add to the storyline, but are still unofficial. The military's testing process is very thorough and has minimal bias, but shouldn't be confused with the military's acquisition process.

        Ask questions and challenge answers - the first spot report is often wrong

        by Iggy1962 on Fri Jun 08, 2007 at 01:07:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  From what I've read (0+ / 0-)

          That was a quality control issue, the individual vest that had the delaminating was missing a 25mm strip of adhesive.

          "If that man had an enema, he could've been buried in a matchbox." - Christopher Hitchens, referring to Jerry Falwell

          by Hannibal on Fri Jun 08, 2007 at 01:12:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If it best (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KiaRioGrl79, Hannibal

            meets the military's standards, then they should have it.

            We must consider that the Intercepter Body Armor also meets the standards and is already fielded. I suspect that changing to a new body armor would be very costly and laborious. I also suspect that additional cost would be incurred in negating the current contract. And lastly, can the Dragon Skin folks produce sufficient quantities to outfit the entire deployed military...or at least those who face daily perils.

            This in no way means tha the troops aren't worth the best, rather I'm pointing out that large scale purchases by government organizations are very tedious and painful.

            Of course this whole discussion presumes that the Dragon Skin is significantly better than the Interceptor.

            Ask questions and challenge answers - the first spot report is often wrong

            by Iggy1962 on Fri Jun 08, 2007 at 01:41:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  How about this (0+ / 0-)

      why don't you try sourcing your arguments with some links, articles, newsprint, etc. I'll gladly read anything you post and make my own unbiased judgments. Otherwise do us all a favor and shut the fuck up with your baseless whining. Let's see what you got besides a big mouth and no stick.

      The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same." Carlos Castaneda

      by FireCrow on Fri Jun 08, 2007 at 02:13:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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