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View Diary: Status Report of the Ontario Coal Phase Out. (194 comments)

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  •  and if he came up with that on his own (0+ / 0-)

    you still don't believe it your responsibility to correct him? i'm not questioning him, i'm questioning you. you know very well that this isn't about his use of prepositions, it's about the clear implication that you have some sort of legitimacy because you are "of" dailykos. you are not. you do not.

    © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

    by Laurence Lewis on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 08:01:35 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Might I suggest (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mataliandy, Turkana

      that the best step forward is ...

      "NNadir -- will you ask to have this description changed?"

      Personally, I think this thread could have started more productively, even if angrily, with "I'm a bit pissed off to read XXX bio which makes it sound like you are a front-pager or some other major figure here. Could you help me understand it?" And, then, after a post or two, to move to "Are you going to change it/have it changed?"

      And, well, NNadir -- will you ask to have the description changed?

      Blogging regularly at Ecotality Blog for a Sustainable Future.

      by A Siegel on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 12:31:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Plan9

        Rod Adams's introduction to his podcast begins:

        NNadir, a popular diarist from The Daily Kos ...

        What needs to be changed? How is this confusing or misleading? I think that Rod has stated precisely what NNadir's connection with the Daily Kos is.

        Essentially, this person (Turkana) is just being a pain in the ass. It wouldn't be the first time that this has happened.

        •  actually (0+ / 0-)

          maybe you missed this part:

          NNadir of The Daily Kos stopped by for a visit

          and to be factual- it's not even honest to call him "popular." if someone who has maybe a dozen fans, has never hit the rec list, and has never even had a top mojo comment is "popular," then there are maybe 100,000 popular diarists on dailykos.

          © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

          by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 02:21:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And? (0+ / 0-)

            No, I saw that. It's right there, just below the part where Rod introduces him as a diarist. Do you really think that people are going to be confused and assume that NNadir owns the site or something?! Geez! Give people some credit for common sense.

            "Popular" is a subjective term. Perhaps Rod thinks that NNadir is popular with his listeners. I don't know. How petty can you get?!!

            Now would you actually like to post something that is relevant to the topic of this diary? Or can you do nothing more that whine about petty BS?

            •  uh- yeah (0+ / 0-)

              i do. and the opinion of someone who, curiously, oly appears on this site to support nnadir's diaries doesn't exactly matter to me. or impress me.

              © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

              by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:10:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Heh ... whatever (0+ / 0-)

                I'm not here to impress, and I'll talk about what I want to talk about.

                At least I'm capable of staying on topic, except that is when I'm trading quips with fools like you. Fortunately, that is a bad habit that I am sincerely trying to break, and in that vein, I am ending my part in this petty, trivial discussion.

                •  actually (0+ / 0-)

                  the petty fool is the one defending someone who is consistently, um, how to be polite- less than honestly engaging with this community (well, with the tiny fraction of the community that notices his "popularity"). and i didn't troll rate you for the personal swipes, because you have no purpose, credibility, or visibility on this site- but next time, i will.

                  © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                  by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:37:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You disagree with BryFry (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    LIsoundview

                    and that's why you want to troll-rate him.  But that is very poor Kossack etiquette.  If he was saying wise-guy things about an enemy of yours, you would not threaten troll-rating, would you?

                    If you are concerned about the integrity of DailyKos, I encourage you to uphold its values about free discussion.  As it happens BryFry's contributions are often useful, educational, and pro-environment.  He has a good understanding of different forms of energy use.  He just does not agree with your particular ideology.

                    The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                    by Plan9 on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 11:04:41 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  no (0+ / 0-)

                      he made personal attacks. i never troll-rate for disagreements, and nadir's characterizing my having tr'd him for disagreement is typical of his "honesty." i tr'd him for, typically, mischaracterizing the arguments of those who disagree with him. you people just can't discuss these things without skewing, can you? nice try.

                      © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                      by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 11:18:59 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You are mischaracterizing my argument (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        LIsoundview

                        --but that happens all the time when people feel strongly about something.  It is not cause for troll-rating.

                        I suggest you look up troll-rating on this site: FAQ.

                        As you can see, there are a number of us who are terribly worried about catastrophic global warming--enough so that we are discussing ways it greenhouse gases can be mitigated.  That's what's important here.  I want to hear your ideas about how we can eliminate fossil fuels while still producing enough electricity to preserve public health and the services we enjoy as a civilized society--like being able to have this dialogue online.  I assume you are using electricity that was produced by burning fossil fuels in order to visit this diary, so therefore you have a role, as do I, in this extremely urgent matter.

                        If people make petty remarks, so what? I don't think anyone posting here is a troll from Free Republic or some other loopy nonprogressive nest of vipers.

                        The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                        by Plan9 on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 11:26:53 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  actually (0+ / 0-)

                          i use hydro and solar for most of my energy use, but keep trying. my credibility promoting conservation and alternative energy sources is well-known. nnadir's monomaniacal focus on nukes, while disparaging all other alternatives, also is. keep trying. you guys are so alike it's laughable.

                          © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                          by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 11:30:16 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  need for many solutions (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Plan9

                            NNadir's disparaging comments, and that of many others who comment here, are based on the reality that conservation, wind, solar, hydro, etc. are going to be insufficient to provide for the energy needs of 6 billion people to 1st world standards, much less new requirements for energy in the future, or population growth. If anything you should recognize it as a progressive perspective. Many people on this site who even you find credible recognize this reality: an energy gap between available "green" renewable resources available (or hard limits on collection, intermittency, siting, etc.) that will need to be filled by a site-independent baseload technology, of which the two main contenders (without any far-future theoretical handwaving) are nuclear and fossil fuels. Either that or mass-migration/die-off, which I have seen a surprising amount of enthusiasm for in certain circles (justified something along the lines of 'Earths Revenge')

                            Hydro and solar are convenient for you perhaps, but keep in mind how many places where the wind doesn't blow, the land is flat, and the sun doesn't shine much. Personally, I began to question what your agenda was after the TR'ing of NNadir and bryfry, which I felt was completely uncalled for.

                            "The answer to fear cannot always lie in the dissipation of the causes of fear; sometimes it lies in courage."

                            by woolie on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 12:05:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  another lie (0+ / 0-)

                            where have i tr'd bryfry? and i only tr'd nadir after he again lied about my stance on fossil fuels. there's a pathological dishonesty among those who try to promote nukes as the solution to fossil fuels. keep trying.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 03:59:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  interesting (0+ / 0-)

                            i just realized you're the third person arguing with me who only appears on this site to support nadir. this is getting more and more interesting.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 08:56:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Our vast nuclear conspiracy (0+ / 0-)

                            Since you have noticed that people who read NNadir's diaries are also concerned about catastrophic global warming and the daily death toll from fossil fuel combustion and the wars caused by fossil-fuel demand, I am going to let you in on a little secret.

                            Many environmentalists, like James "Gaia" Lovelock and like the head of Environmental Defense have recognized that nuclear power, as the single biggest displacer of greenhouse gases on the planet, has got to be expanded.  A large-scale technology with the best safety record provides clean energy worldwide and has a small environmental footprint and an extremely small volume of waste that is always shielded and monitored and can be recycled many, many times.

                            So there are not just the people who agree with NNadir on this diary, there are thousands of us pro-nuclear-power enviros out there.  You can go to this top-secret site to find out more.

                            And you might want to take a look at Brookhaven National Lab's analysis about the risks that would accompany ramping photovoltaics up to a greater scale.

                            If you think wind and solar are not being fostered by megacorporations but rather by friendly guys in Birkenstocks in Woodstock and Berkeley, think again.  All the big energy corporations are at the trough slurping up those subsidies and tax breaks.

                            The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                            by Plan9 on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 06:44:57 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i notice (0+ / 0-)

                            that their only solution is nukes. all roads lead to nukes. people genuinely worried about global warming talk about it, the politics of it, the various possible solutions for it. nadir and hi handful of kool-aid friends talk about nukes. and nukes. and nukes. yes, they're to be taken seriously. you participate in daily kos, and have for a long time. they don't. except to talk about nukes. and more nukes.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 08:52:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  But your solution seems to be (0+ / 0-)

                            to continue burning fossil fuels to obtain baseload electricity in the hope that somehow the waste gets sequestered.  Am I correct?  You have quoted NRDC and that seems to be their answer to the gap left if you eliminate nuclear power and hope renewables will somehow increase to supply a huge proportion.

                            NNadir does write about other topics, BTW.  And in fact those of us who are interested in what he has to say about nuclear power are treated to his digressions on his decidedly Democratic leanings, interest in certain heroic and maligned figures (Lise Meitner, for example; thanks to her discovery, members of my family and friends have been successfully treated for cancer).

                            And NNadir usually includes alternative energy sources in his vision of the future of electricity production in the US.  You are the one who seems to disparage and exclude, and to support fossil fuel combustion.  In a suspicious person that could raise the question of whether you are a shill for the coal industry and the question of how much the coal industry contributes to NRDC.

                            But I am not interested in conspiracies.  I am interested in how best to deal with catastrophic global warming and to clear up entrenched misperceptions that shape the attitudes of well-meaning folks like you, Mr. Turkana.

                            The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                            by Plan9 on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 10:21:47 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I wouldn't say "leanings" exactly. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Plan9

                            I have voted in every election in my adult life and I have voted for as long as I can remember straight party line.  

                            This may sound as if I am something of an automaton, but I feel justifiably proud of my record nonetheless.

                            I am not always thrilled with Democratic candidates - I was hardly bowled over by Michael Dukakis for instance - but I have always been aware of the alternative.   In 1988 I was decidedly unhappy with my party's choice, but I accepted it.

                          •  you can call me if you like (0+ / 0-)

                            I read the front page every day and most of the recommended diaries, but this is the only diary I like to comment on. If you need proof that I'm not a proxy for NNadir, it's easily arranged. I thought you had also TR'd bryfry -- there were alot of tr's going on that day and you had at least a few. I'll go back and double check.

                            "The answer to fear cannot always lie in the dissipation of the causes of fear; sometimes it lies in courage."

                            by woolie on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 07:59:12 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  actually (0+ / 0-)

                            i only tr'd nadir once, that i recall, on that day. and how interesting that the only diarist you comment on is one of the least popular, and least visible. but he does talk about nukes.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 08:53:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yes (0+ / 0-)

                            because I'm interested in nuclear energy and because I enjoy NNadir's prose on the subject. I converse in many spaces online, this is just one of them. I guess if you want to call NNadir the least popular and least visible on this site, fine, doesn't negate the fact his typical diary has 100+ comments, among them jerome a paris, adam siegel, engineer poet, etc., and apparently you also feel inclined to chime in on nearly every diary. Additionally, a number of nuclear professionals enliven and enrich these pages. It's quite a happening spot for pronuclear activists on the internet.

                            Anyway, I find the charge of 'sock puppet' interesting. I used my real name on this site previously (also to comment on NNadir's diaries) but decided I wanted an intermediate step between my real name and my comments. If you care, my real name, contact info, and many details about my life can be found here / here.

                            I plan to start my own nuclear energy diary on this site soon; the first entry will concern the intent of NRG/STNP to apply for a COL license at a meeting NRC is holding in Bay City next Wednesday.

                            "The answer to fear cannot always lie in the dissipation of the causes of fear; sometimes it lies in courage."

                            by woolie on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 02:46:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  how very interesting (0+ / 0-)

                            that the leading left wing political blog should increasingly be spammed by pro-nuclear activists who have no apparent other interest in the site's declared purpose.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:52:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Unless the site's declared purpose ... (0+ / 0-)

                            is "willful ignorance," then I would think that the online community here would be pleased and grateful that people take time to stop by and share information on a topic on which they are quite knowledgeable.

                            But then again, since you are someone who has actually posted a poll with only one choice, I can see that you are a person who is not used to debate and dissenting opinions. It has been my displeasure to have met many people like you, who would rather sit in a room with others who agree with them -- all nodding their heads "yes" and reciting the same dogma -- than go outside to discover an opposing view or try to learn anything new.

                            Fortunately, although you seem to take it upon yourself to speak for this entire site, I don't think that everyone here is as close-minded as you. So if you do not like what is being discussed here, I suggest that you return to whatever little corner of blogspace that you came out of. At least everyone agrees with you there, so you should be happy.

                          •  wow (0+ / 0-)

                            you're clearly too clueless to even understand the way this site works. that little diary actually made the recommended list for its playfulness. that playful little diary was better received by this community than anything the "popular" diarist nnadir has written. i will simply let the site know what you all are up to, and the community can decide how best to deal with you.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:22:59 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow is right! (0+ / 0-)

                            that little diary actually made the recommended list for its playfulness. that playful little diary was better received by this community than anything the "popular" diarist nnadir has written.

                            Like the accompanying poll, that little diary was pathetic. It is completely dwarfed, both in content and style, by even the smallest, most hastily-crafted throw-away diary that NNadir has ever produced. Hell! You couldn't even get the math right (hint: 2007 - 1981 = 26 years ... not 25 years, you math wiz you!), making your one poll choice completely stupid. Congratulations on your utter incompetence.

                            If your crappy little diary entry was that popular, then this only speaks to the number of morons like yourself who visit this site. That said, I don't believe that everyone here, coming from the various corners of the internet and from all parts of the democratic party, is as stupid as you. Thus, these diaries -- and these comments, including mine -- are meant for the thinking person, and I believe that they are doing some good. Unlike you, I don't require everyone in the world to agree with everything I say. All I ask is that they give my words a little rational thought. Judging from your comments, that is something that you have never done.

                            i will simply let the site know what you all are up to, and the community can decide how best to deal with you.

                            Ha ha ha ha ha ... go for it!

                            (You know, there are two little buttons on your keyboard that allow you to type capital letters. It's not that difficult to do. Even children can do it.)

                          •  He/She really really (0+ / 0-)

                            likes titling diaries with exclamation points too!

                          •  Thanks, I hadn't noticed (0+ / 0-)

                            So Turkana does know how to use the shift key!

                            Wait ... perhaps I'm being to hasty. After all, some non-English keyboards (e.g., the azerty keyboard) do not require one to use the shift key to get an exclamation point.

                          •  excuse me? (0+ / 0-)

                            I come from a family of progressives (in action, not just ideology) and have been a progressive democrat my entire life. Despite what you may think, you are not the arbiter of acceptable discourse on this site. As I said earlier, I believe nuclear power is a progressive cause. It's an environmental cause. You've really failed to convince me otherwise in this space.

                            Actually I think my diaries here will be even more rewarding, knowing it's going against your dictums about acceptable progressive causes. I'll be sure to spam them all over the place.

                            "The answer to fear cannot always lie in the dissipation of the causes of fear; sometimes it lies in courage."

                            by woolie on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:01:22 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Might I suggest .. (0+ / 0-)

                            that your first diary (under this pen name) be about what you think it is to be progressive. I know that I would be interested in reading about that. Thanks.

                          •  first diary under this pen name (0+ / 0-)

                            so he has used previous ones? i would be vdery interested to know which ones, why he's using a different one, and how you know so much about it.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:25:00 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Can you read? (0+ / 0-)

                            Or do you just shoot off your mouth at random?

                            This commenter has clearly stated above that he used to post under his real name, but now he uses the identity that he is using to post here. I have no idea when or where he has posted what on the internet, but it is true that he has not yet posted any diaries under this identity. He has stated, however, that he intends to begin his own series of diaries, and I wish him luck. Thus, the next diary that he posts will be his first ... duh. That's right, I forgot that you have trouble with math.

                          •  you nuke trolls are fun (0+ / 0-)

                            and i've enjoyed revealing you. as i will continue to.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:26:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I am glad (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Matthew B, woolie

                            that we "trolls" can provide you with some entertainment. Hopefully, one of these days, you will actually write something that is relevant to the topics that are being discussed here.

                            On the topic of trolls, it is interesting to see what the site has to say about this:

                            What all these things have in common is that they represent content that is irrelevant to the thread, or intentionally disruptive of the goals of the conversation, or seek to poison the atmosphere in which conversation can take place at all. That is trolling.

                            In my opinion, and I hardly think that I'm alone, every one of your comments in this diary entry fall into this category. Add in the little bit about the pro-nuclear conspiracy theories that you have insinuated in some of your later comments (see the section on "Conspiracy Trolls"), and I think that your behavior here makes you a first-rate troll. Congratulations.

                          •  interesting (0+ / 0-)
                            Apparently you comment not to further discussion, but to provoke others, an activity which defines a troll.  Being a troll is nothing to be proud of.
                          •  hope you do (0+ / 0-)

                            the community can decide how to deal with your spamming. if you do it with the charm and wit of nnadir, i'm sure you will be just as "popular."

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:24:09 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm one too (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Plan9

                            I came here because of a link provided by NEI.

                            I think what NNadir is doing is wonderful.  For some reason us on the left have missed the boat on nuclear.  We should be the lead in promoting it over the fossil fuel industry that's the darling of the right.

                            The only reason I can think of for you bring up NNadir's groupies is to make an ad hominem logical fallacy.  Can't refute what they say, so attack the person.

                          •  Not all of us missed it. (0+ / 0-)

                            Hans Bethe, Democrat, was a tireless promoter of nuclear energy.

                            I only recently became aware of the fact that Glenn Seaborg was also a great Democrat besides a great scientist, and a great diplomat.

                            Many of the nuclear pioneers were on the left.   On some level this is entirely natural.

                          •  But you also favor fossil fuels (0+ / 0-)

                            You happen to live where hydro power is available.  You happen to be rich enough to buy solar technology.

                            But you like to quote the NRDC argument favoring coal-fired plants over nuclear ones (though NRDC is softening its anti-nuke stance).  And I think about your position and wonder whether it is actually possible to invent a coal-fired plant that does not emit deadly, global-warming waste.  I hope someone can bring that off--seriously.

                            Neither NNadir nor I have ever opposed wind and solar power. From what I can tell NNadir is in favor of them.  So am I. We only acknowledge that these resources are highly unlikely to replace fossil fuels since they require backup. That just happens to be a limitation these renewables have until some breakthroughs in storage technology occur. This is not to disparage these cleaner resources but to be realistic. Even if wind and solar supply 20% or 50% of our electricity, in your (zero-nuclear) world that leaves fossil fuels doing the rest of the job.  Unfortunately, wherever nuclear plants are shut down, coal-fired plants spring up.

                            If anyone is doing disparaging, you are--you don't like nuclear power.   Fine. Chacun a son goût. I don't find that a reason to troll-rate you.

                            The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                            by Plan9 on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 12:30:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  nnadir's only diary talking about solar (0+ / 0-)

                            was to disparage silicon chips, and, typically, he ignored responses about the new developments in alternate chip technologies, including organic compounds. and maybe you should learn a little about csp technology.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 04:03:12 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I know about csp technology (0+ / 0-)

                            But do you know how a nuclear plant works? How a reactor works? The difference between low-enriched uranium, depleted uranium, and highly-enriched uranium?  Do you understand how the chain reaction works?  

                            Are you aware of what comprises nuclear waste and what percentage is lethal and needs to be isolated and what percentage rapidly becomes harmless?  Do you know what the volume of nuclear waste is in this country per year in comparison to the volume of coal combustion waste?

                            Are you aware of what emissions enter the environment in the US from nuclear power as compared to other power sources?

                            Are you current with epidemiological studies of radiation exposure and their conclusions about health effects in regard to nuclear power, nuclear workers, and populations who are chronically exposed to higher than average natural background radiation?

                            Are you aware that a billion people get some or all of their electricity from nuclear power?  That the lifespan in countries without electricity is 43 years? That about 435 reactors operate safely around the world and have avoided trillions of tons of greenhouse gases?

                            Just wondering....

                            The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                            by Plan9 on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 08:27:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yes (0+ / 0-)

                            and i also know the costs, the risks, and that nuclear waste will be with us, effectively, forever. csp has no negatives.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 08:34:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  polymers last forever; nuclear waste decays (0+ / 0-)

                            CSP relies on polymers.  They will be around until the end of the solar system. Nature does not know how to dismantle most plastics.  But it has been taking apart uranium, thorium, radium, etc. for billions of years and is quite good at it.

                            Do you know anything about the decay series for uranium? All but 1% of high-level waste in spent nuclear fuel decays rapidly to the level or uranium ore.

                            The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                            by Plan9 on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 08:42:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  and they won't hurt anyone (0+ / 0-)

                            while radiation is forever. it's fascinating how you nuke fans are so enamored with such a dangerous, costly, centralized, and corporate profitable technology rather than clean, renewable, decentralized ones. very curious.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 08:49:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Please provide me with an accurate instance (0+ / 0-)

                            of a single civilian in the U.S. being hurt by spent fuel rods from a commercial nuclear plant over the past 50 years.

                            No hearsay, please.  I need documentation from a reliable source.

                            Thank you.

                            The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                            by Plan9 on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 06:07:38 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  if 'alternative' energy is really a solution, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Plan9

                            it will only be a handful of years before it's "centralized, corporate, and profitable." Regardless, this is the worst kind of bogus argument, because many nuclear plants themselves are owned by state electricity or cooperatives. Also, it's just pure wishful thinking if you believe the grid is going to become more decentralized, "democratic and equitable." This is projecting a political ideology into an engineering space, and it doesn't work. You should look at the existing distribution of power generating stations overlaid on a population density map. Additionally, the term 'renewable' is abused in this instance because there's not exactly a shortage of fissile/fertile material easily obtained on earth.

                            "The answer to fear cannot always lie in the dissipation of the causes of fear; sometimes it lies in courage."

                            by woolie on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 08:08:43 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As usual, you are mistaken (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Plan9, bryfry

                            and unwittingly making the case for nuclear power.

                            CSP technology is best known for its spectacular disaster:

                            Solar power plant explodes
                            DAGGETT, Calif., Feb. 26 (UPI) San Bernardino County authorities say a tank of chemicals at a solar power plant in Daggett, Calif., has
                            exploded, spawning a fire that may burn throughout the night. Fire Department spokesman David McLees says all the employees at the SEGS2
                            plant were accounted for shortly after the explosion rocked the plant at about 6:05 p.m. today. McLees says the fire is being fueled by a
                            700,000-gallon tank of Therminol, a fluid used in heat transfer because it can be heated to 850 degrees. The fluid is heated on solar panels, where it reaches maximum temperature, then runs through pipes in a heat transfer area, where it turns water into steam. The steam powers turbines that create electricity. Sheriff's deputies say a 1/2-
                            mile area along Interstate 40 near Barstow is being evacuated because of Therminol's slightly toxicity. McLees says firefighters have no estimated time of containment for the fire.

                            Pictures here:

                            CSP Explodes on the Scene

                          •  oh, gosh (0+ / 0-)

                            one harmless accident at one plant. gosh. compared to the record of nuclear, that's just devastating. "best known"? same old same old.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 08:53:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's an awfully nasty (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Plan9

                            accident, especially in light of the tiny amounts of electricity that CSP produces. You said there are no negatives due to CSP, yet there's a set of pictures showing a CSP up in flames. How do you pooh-pooh this as nothing? That black filth billowing in the sky - that's an accident. And yes, amongst people who make megawatts for a living, this incident is one of many reasons why CSP is roundly dismissed as a flop.

                            Despite producing orders of magnitude more energy than any CSP plants, the nuclear power industry in the U.S. has never had an uncontrolled release of toxins like this. Note several things about the CSP: no engineered safeguards; no containment; no fire suppression system; no recovery actions. No accident management or evacuation plans. No nothing: it just burned and burned and burned. By the standards set and maintained by the nuclear power industry, this thing would never have been allowed to operate.

                            I am one of NNadir's biggest fans.

                          •  i get it, now (0+ / 0-)

                            nadir doesn't have many fans on this site- a dozen or so. he or a friend has recruited some people from off-site to come in here and act like they're part of the community here, like he matters, like he has friends or something. it's kind of cute, in a pathetic sort of way. yes- nukes good, renewables bad. sure. keep it up.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:01:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No you don't get it... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Plan9

                            In the face of direct evidence that you are wrong, you respond churlishly by saying that accidents at solar plants don't matter. Only accidents at nuclear plants matter, even if they are only hypothetical, or trivial. Rather than addressing the crux of my comments, which is that CSP would seem susceptible to the process safety issues common in many industrial facilities, you simply say that this accident is not as bad as those in the nuclear power industry. What cost-benefit analysis or risk assessment did you use to come up with this conclusion? The fact remains that CSP is notable mainly for this explosion, rather than for producing electricity.

                            NNadir is perhaps the best pro-nuclear blogger out there. Noone preaches like the converted. The NEI is very good at presenting the facts, but they lack directness and zeal. NEI maintains a measured tone, rather than simply telling the antinukes that they are full of crap. Energypulse.net is great, but it is not specifically pro-nuclear.

                          •  whatever you say (0+ / 0-)

                            find whatever unique events you want to disparage anything non-nuclear. you're so transparent, now, it's no longer even worth bothering- except to warn others, when you clowns show up.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 11:43:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There's nothing unique about it... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Plan9

                            You, like many, are inured to fires and explosions as real risks, but treat the tiniest level of radioactivity with complete dread. The Daggett CSP explosion is not especially unique. I'm sure that if we built hundreds of plants of similar design, we would have many more such events. It's simply a matter of luck, rather than good design or smart engineering, that noone was killed in that explosion.

                            That's why I continually remind readers here that diffuse power sources are not without risk, and their benefit in relation to their risk cannot stand comparison to nuclear power. Trying to cull power from solar insolation, which amounts to 1000 watt/m^2 at best, may have made sense to the ancient Greeks. But in 2007, very few of us could stand living in an economy where the sun and the wind are the major sources of power.

                          •  continually? (0+ / 0-)

                            you're brand new. or are you? are you even a democrat? yes, i take you very seriously. ~yawn~

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 08:47:42 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Why thank you. (0+ / 0-)

                            NNadir is perhaps the best pro-nuclear blogger out there.

                            I'm sure you're a connoisseur of these things.

                            Let's not forget Ruth Sponsler.  She is a very fine writer and an excellent thinker.   I have corresponded with her privately and she is a very fine person as well.

                            Rod Adams has been a presence on the internet for many years.   The first nuke stuff I read on the internet was from him.   It was a great pleasure to visit him at his home and to meet him.  He is an original thinker.

                            The NEI is getting a more edgy.   I learn quite a bit on their site.   I like those folks.  Eric McErlain, Lisa Stiles, Dave Bradish and many others do a good job.   Of course they are paid to do what they do, but one should work at what one loves.

                          •  I think Turkana is paid to come here (0+ / 0-)

                            and set forth attitudes and misinformation that we who are aware of the urgency of doing something on a large scale to address global warming get to correct for the edification of lurkers.  I believe he or she must be in the employ of the Nuclear Energy Institute.  Curious how Turkana always turns up when you write a diary. I bet Mr. T has a whole closet full of those NEI golf shirts.

                            Fess up NNadir:  you and Turkana are obviously in cahoots to make your diaries lively.

                            The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                            by Plan9 on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 10:35:57 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I probably shouldn't comment. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Plan9

                            I have only scanned his/her/its comments that refer to me by name.   In only one case since the early development of this diary have I been inclined to respond, and this only in connection to the claim that I have only written about solar energy only once.   I produced evidence that I have written extensively here on the subject of solar energy.

                            I am known as a "nuclear shill," but really my raison d'etre is about climate change and energy, all energy.  Anything that works against climate change is fine by me and I like to examine the nuts and bolts of all systems.

                            I have nothing against solar energy by the way.  If someday solar PV energy were producing more than 25 exajoules of energy per year, I would be a happy camper, like most Kossacks.  Currently though, I think solar energy doesn't quite live up to its marketing - it doesn't produce even one exajoule - but that hardly makes it worthless or implies that development of whatever potential it has should be arrested.    

                            Chiefly I am concerned with the arrest of the use  of dangerous fossil fuels.   When dangerous fossil fuels are replaced I will be happy to debate the relative merits of what has replaced them.

                          •  Amen, Bro (0+ / 0-)

                            Anything that works against climate change is fine by me and I like to examine the nuts and bolts of all systems.

                            Me too.

                            The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                            by Plan9 on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:48:53 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  and, btw (0+ / 0-)

                            i notice that you're yet another who only appears on this site to support nadir. how interesting.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 08:53:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  more and more interesting (0+ / 0-)

                            how do you know i'm "mistaken" "as usual"? you've only been on one thread, prior to this one, and i wasn't even there. you guys are so obvious it's absurd.

                            © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

                            by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 09:07:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  csp is promising but... (0+ / 0-)

                            It is still very expensive.  And one way to make it cheaper is to combine it with burning fossil fuels:

                            What Does It Cost?
                            Concentrating solar power technologies currently offer the lowest-cost solar electricity for large-scale power generation (10 megawatt-electric and above). Current technologies cost $2–$3 per watt. This results in a cost of solar power of 9¢–12¢ per kilowatt-hour. New innovative hybrid systems that combine large concentrating solar power plants with conventional natural gas combined cycle or coal plants can reduce costs to $1.5 per watt and drive the cost of solar power to below 8¢ per kilowatt hour.

                            With some luck, csp will be down to 4¢–5¢ per kilowatt-hour in 20 years.

                            Average costs of nuclear power have been below  2 cents/kwh for the past eight years.

                            The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                            by Plan9 on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 08:38:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually I write about solar quite often. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Plan9

                            Here is my commentary on the Maine Solar House:

                            The Cost of the Maine Solar House to the Environment:  A Crude Calculation.

                            Here is my comment on the supplies of materials to make solar PV cells:

                            Report:  Polysilicon Shortages to Restrain Solar Power Growth for Years

                            Here is my comment on the solar business of one of the world's largest solar companies, the dangerous fossil fuel company, BP, which bills itself as "Beyond Petroleum" even though it continues to have dangerous fossil fuel accidents:

                            BP Solar Talks Up Its Solar Capacity.

                            (By the way, as we're speaking of one of the largest solar companies, BP, if you wrote a diary calling for the phase out of gasoline after the deadly explosion in BP's dangerous fossil fuel facility in Texas City, I'd love for you to link it here.   I'm sure that we'll be very interested to learn about your outrage.   Further if you wrote a diary calling for fossil fuel bans after BP's leaks of dangerous fossil fuels on a multimetric ton scale from dangerous fossil fuel pipelines in Alaska, that would also be an interesting read.   I'm sure you trust BP to handle the toxic heavy metals and chemicals used to make solar cells though.)

                            I explained my position on renewable energy in this diary while using renewable industry data:

                            German Renewables Report:   External Cost of Carbon Dioxide Vastly Underestimated

                            I discussed renewable energy, including solar, in Germany (and the world) in this dairy:

                            Bait and Switch:   German Nuclear Phase Out, Renewables, Coal and Carbon Dioxide.

                            I discussed solar energy as a possible component of a motor fuel in this diary:

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            I discussed Irish renwable energy policy in this diary:

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            I discussed the data on the renewable energy for the entire planet in this diary:

                            How well Is Renewable Energy Keeping Up With Demand Growth?

                            My very first diary on this site was about solar energy:

                            Solar Energy Production Fell Slightly in 2005.

                            I have made my positions on solar energy abundantly clear:    I don't object to middle class and upper class consumers who can afford it using it.  

                            However, to pretend that a form of energy like solar electricity - which is now more than 50 years old and has yet to produce a single exajoule of energy per year - is a reasonable approach to addressing climate change is absurd.   Basically it's a middle class conceit and largely represents a form of dangerous complacency, denial, and even on some level, an abnegation of personal responsibility through an appeal to wishful thinking.

                            It is amazing how often I am required to discuss solar energy, given that it remains what it has been for 50 years, a trivial form of energy.  

                            You may now return to trying to make a conversation about the climate crisis and energy into a high school popularity contest.  

                            I've been trying to avoid reading your comments, to be frank, but could not avoid this one.    I note that the word "popular" has you really ramped up.

                            What a surprise.

                            I should warn you though, that I am not engaged in popularity seeking.   I am much older, much uglier, much less appealing than say, Paris Hilton, or one of those other popular interests.    Frankly popular opinion distresses me deeply and given the state of affairs in modern times the last thing I'd want to do is to be associated with the popular imagination.

          •  Turkana, are you jealous of NNadir's popularity? (0+ / 0-)

            If you dont like his ideas and you are obviously are unwilling or unable to conduct a discussion about these ideas, so why do you bother to stick around?  

            Your fabricated ad hominem attacks and other fallacies are just plain pathetic. May I kindly ask you to grow up please, maybe get some life and stop behaving like a little bratty drama queen?

      •  on the last part (0+ / 0-)

        don't hold your breath.

        © 2007 "one must pay back from this secret deposit of exquisite moments" - virginia woolf

        by Laurence Lewis on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:39:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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