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  •  If my understanding of the law in Muslim (5+ / 0-)

    states is correct, there appears to be no civil law and that non-Muslims are not afforded protections under the laws in those countries.

    That makes it pretty tough for non-Muslims to accept Islam as a form of government.

    "If they had given Falwell an enema, he could have been buried in a matchbox" -- Christopher Hitchins

    by Persiflage on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 07:43:45 AM PDT

    •  good comment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Organic American

      (omg - your sig line! that is too funny!)

      You don't know the REAL Homer! It's all burping and neglect! -- Bart Simpson

      by Pandoras Box on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 07:55:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Right now... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BachFan, Noor B

      In most Muslim countries Islamic law is only functioning in the capacity of civil law. So I don't think that is correct if I understand your comment correctly.

      "That makes it pretty tough for non-Muslims to accept Islam as a form of government."

      But we are not talking about non-Muslims accepting Islam as a form of government. What we are talking about is non-Muslims particularly in the West accepting a sovereign and democratically governed Muslim country that elects the Qur'an as its principle means of legislation by its legislators.

      -- Hakim Abdullah | Chief Editor

      by Hakim Abdullah on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:01:49 AM PDT

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      •  I don't see how a government based on (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        EvilPaula, Pandoras Box

        any religion can be 'democratic"...especially when the "laws" of that religion are applied based on interpretation by religious leaders acting as jurists.  

        On the other hand, if Muslims want to be ruled and possibly tried and convicted and punished based on the tenets of their religion, it's OK with me as long as no one forces me, as a non-Muslim, to accept it in my country....and as long as Muslims don't try to force me (through any means) to accept their ways.  

        Radical Islam versus Islam is not being differentiated well.  And it's the non-radical Muslims that should be speaking out.  

           

        "If they had given Falwell an enema, he could have been buried in a matchbox" -- Christopher Hitchins

        by Persiflage on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:22:51 AM PDT

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      •  You didn't understand the comment (4+ / 0-)

        Under Islamic law, non-muslims are second class citizens.

        Under Islamic law, women are the chattel of their husbands, fathers or brothers.

        Under Islamic law gays are subject to the death penalty, just for being gay.

        What's progressive about any of this?

        •  All of this is legally baseless... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Noor B

          yet there are historical records of oppressive conditions in dhimmi communities, abuse of women and cruelty to homosexuals. But please put some context to your discussion...

          -- Hakim Abdullah | Chief Editor

          by Hakim Abdullah on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:22:52 AM PDT

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        •  It doesn't have to be that way. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pandoras Box

          He's trying to reclaim bid'ah as a legitimate tool for political change in Islam.  

          "Fighting Fascism is Always Cool." -- Amsterdam Weekly, volume three, issue 18

          by Noor B on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:23:34 AM PDT

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          •  It seems then that he is asking two (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Persiflage

            questions:

            1.  how can Islam reclaim "permissible" bid'ah as a political tool (how can non-Muslims answer this?)
            1.  would western countries accept such a mythological country? (i need more information: what would this country look like in society, culture and laws)

            You don't know the REAL Homer! It's all burping and neglect! -- Bart Simpson

            by Pandoras Box on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:33:17 AM PDT

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            •  Yeah, he is. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Persiflage, Pandoras Box

              And he's asking them in very scholarly, densely constructed ways, which is making his task more difficult.

              I think we can be of help.  Precedent is just as important in the common law tradition as in fiqh.  The thing that's necessary for us is to remember that an authentic democracy there will not be the same as ours.  What they need is a massive expansion of legal scholarship.  There are veritable mountains of material to read, reinterpret and apply.  It is going to be a monumental undertaking, and I won't see the full fruition of it in my lifetime.  (I'm 46, and expect to be around another 40-50 years if I'm lucky.)  This is the project of an entire century.

              The second question is trickier.  Personally, I would.  But then, I'm an unusual person in many ways.  Much will depend upon future economic and political developments around the globe.  I know a lot of people will not be able to envision a world in which Muslim countries are egalitarian democracies.  To that I would say, we have seen how our country has regressed over the last seven years and how much it is being reviled worldwide, something none of us ten years ago could have ever considered even a remote possibility.  So keep some faith here, stand ready to encourage, and even to help when asked, and we shall see what we shall see.  Not a very satisfactory answer, I know, but I'm only human and not a bit psychic.  ;-)  

              "Fighting Fascism is Always Cool." -- Amsterdam Weekly, volume three, issue 18

              by Noor B on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:35:09 AM PDT

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              •  well, I admit to not knowing much (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Persiflage

                about Islamic history, but it seems to me that I have read/heard that at least at one (very ancient) time, the societies of the middle east were some of, if not, THE most educated and progressive in the world and have no doubt that they could be again, if they so choose. I could easily accept any country which promoted equal and just treatment for all its citizens, but is that where Muslim societies are heading at this time?

                It's certainly not where the US is heading, but then that's part of why we're all here, raising our voices.

                You don't know the REAL Homer! It's all burping and neglect! -- Bart Simpson

                by Pandoras Box on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:47:17 AM PDT

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                •  To answer your question, (0+ / 0-)

                  they stand on a precipice.  This is the major ideological battle in the ME, just as it is here.  The established power structures there are as inimical to their aims and goals as the same here is to ours.  

                  I think this is also why Hakim Abdullah came here, to raise his voice alongside ours and ask for an intellectual engagement that could prove helpful and productive.  I genuinely believe we can and should make common cause with progressive Muslims in the ME, as we can and should with progressives anywhere, everywhere in the world.  Indeed, I believe we must do so, for the future of our shared world depends upon mutual successes.

                  I'll be honest -- their prospects are worse than ours.  The major reason for that is oil.  The ME is sitting on top of most of the world's proven reserves.  The power structures, both theirs and ours, are predicated upon our needing that oil.  In turn, we have to be willing to overlook the horrific things these governments do to their own people just so we can tank up our SUVs.  This is the irony of our times:  despite all the rhetoric about terror, etc., the truth is both peoples' security and prosperity are being hijacked over black gold.  This is what gets Muslims in the ME so incensed.  The resource belongs to their countries, their people, and the entire people should benefit from it, not just their ruling elites.  Hakim, correct me if I'm wrong here, but my understanding is that under Islam, it is the community as a whole that is the entire basis of society, and thus the nation as a whole should benefit from its resources, not just its elite.  Appropriating a national resource is a damn good way to undermine, impoverish and oppress an entire nation, the political community.  The conservatives in the ME aren't the only culprits here.  They get lots of help from our energy industry.  And you know where that leads.

                  On a side note, there is a very interesting book you might like to find, if you can.  It is Mahmood Mamdani's Good Muslim, Bad Muslim:  Islam, the USA, and the Global War Against Terror, published by Permanent Black in 2005.  This is a relatively new Indian academic publisher that is giving OUP India a run for its money.  You should be able to order it from South Asia Books.  Be prepared to be utterly disgusted.

                  "Fighting Fascism is Always Cool." -- Amsterdam Weekly, volume three, issue 18

                  by Noor B on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 12:40:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  But what does that mean for outsiders? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Persiflage

        People who do not live in such a country, but are "looking in?"

        How would a Muslim country which elects the Quran as it's principle means of legislation treat its citizens, how would it choose to co-exist with its neighbors?

        It seems to me that the answers to those questions would guide acceptance or nonacceptance of such a country by any nonMuslim country.

        You don't know the REAL Homer! It's all burping and neglect! -- Bart Simpson

        by Pandoras Box on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 08:24:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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