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  •  Wait... (0+ / 0-)

    In thinking about this, we have a commonly held tenet that God wishes people to decide of their free will.

    Who are "we"?

    "This, if followed, gives us the ability to remain inactive in the face of people acting in a manner opposed to what we feel is the will of God because we feel that it's Gods will that they find salvation in their own stead."

    That is definitely philosophy. And I can go to the Qur'an and point out what makes Muslims more civil, compassionate and free than a non-Muslim but that wouldn't account for whats-his-name over there in Glasgow now would it. Likewise those secular philosophies do not account for neo-conservative banter against Islam or racist views that remain enmeshed in the fabric of this society.

    -- Hakim Abdullah | Chief Editor

    by Hakim Abdullah on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:34:26 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Sorry 'we' meant westerners (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pandoras Box, bobisbob

      I should have been clearer.  I believe it to be why Christians can, for the most part, live with a secular basis for their government.  You might note that this is a matter of serious contention in America at the moment.

      I have been addressing myself to the problem of how, in a multicultural society, one lives with the fact that other people may not view their relationship to God in the same way you do -- or may, in fact, not accept a relationship to God at all.

      Now, you can decide that God has told you that all must be converted, and act on that, but that's going to make it pretty hard for us to get along.

      •  But... (0+ / 0-)

        Does this include me? I'm a Westerner.

        I believe it to be why Christians can, for the most part, live with a secular basis for their government.

        Yes but William, do you know what kind of social upheaval the West went through to get to that point. The bloodshed, madness and mayhem that went on in order to further religious reform in Christianity. Its not worth it brother, really its not.

        "Now, you can decide that God has told you that all must be converted, and act on that, but that's going to make it pretty hard for us to get along."

        Islam doesn't work like that. God can't tell us anything we are not Prophets and we believe Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) was the last Prophet within a succession of Prophets begining with Adam (a.s.), leading to Jesus (a.s.) and concluding with Muhammad (a.s.). And this is why Islamic Law is important, it is the Word of God in our belief and has a real textual basis for governing egalitarian society. This is why this is an important issue.

        -- Hakim Abdullah | Chief Editor

        by Hakim Abdullah on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 01:11:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Western countries vs Islamic ones (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pandoras Box

          Has been the subject of much of your discussions.  Clearly since you live here, you are in the West.  I might point out that had some of our earlier, religious based, laws been in place you would be in real trouble as an unbeliever.  As would I, so I'm glad those are the old days.  In the current days, as an unbeliever I am, under the legal codes you advocate less of a man than you are -- which is a bit troubling.

          Indeed, I understand the long history of wars, killings, torture etc. that Christianity has gone through before we decide to live and let live.  And, frankly, the battle lies just below the surface when someone starts pointing to the parts of the Bible that say suffer not a witch to live and start wanting to kill our pagan friends.  Some devout Christians aren't too kind to Jews, and there was significant discomfort about having a Catholic president in JFK.

          I think it is a logical necessity that either people decide to tolerate differences from God's will or kill or convert everyone else.  And when I say that I most clearly am not specifically talking about Islam.

          As to God not telling you something, if you believe that a book is the Word of God then it is essentially the same thing -- in this case the telling is you interpreting what the words mean.

    •  How are Muslims more... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      leftynyc, Pandoras Box

      civil, compassionate and free than a non-Muslim

      ?????

      This is something I would like to know, as I feel that I am a very compassionate, civil and definitely free. The last part is because I live in America, and has to do with political philosophy, not religious.

      "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

      by Boisepoet on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 01:01:54 PM PDT

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      •  fantasy muslim (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Boisepoet

        is what it sounds like to me.

      •  This is why I must keep writing... (0+ / 0-)

        I see that many of you have never really talked to a Muslim about his religion and furthermore have not discussed deeper Islamic points with a scholar and student as in my case of Islam.

        -- Hakim Abdullah | Chief Editor

        by Hakim Abdullah on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 01:14:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Quite the assumption. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pandoras Box

          Have had many discussions with many different Muslims from across the globe.

          Your inability to articulate 'how' appears problematic to me. Please articulate.

          "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

          by Boisepoet on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 01:24:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How in reference to what? -n/t (0+ / 0-)

            -- Hakim Abdullah | Chief Editor

            by Hakim Abdullah on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 01:43:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Per post above: (0+ / 0-)

              How are Muslims more...
              civil, compassionate and free than a non-Muslim
              ?????

              This is something I would like to know, as I feel that I am a very compassionate, civil and definitely free. The last part is because I live in America, and has to do with political philosophy, not religious.

              "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

              by Boisepoet on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 01:46:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  If you meant... (0+ / 0-)

            How are Muslims more civil... I said that in response to William Shippley saying,

            "And I can go to the Qur'an and point out what makes Muslims more civil, compassionate and free than a non-Muslim but that wouldn't account for whats-his-name over there in Glasgow now would it."

            And you are asking me how? How what? How can I go to the Qur'an? Or How does the Qur'an say this? Either way this is way off topic and not of real importance out of the context of Williams comment.

            Have had many discussions with many different Muslims from across the globe.

            OK so you must have a bit more knowledge of the content of this article than most. So did you understand the points on bid'ah and ijtihad they were very important for certain readers? By the way you should try writing for two very different audiences sometimes... its not easy.

            -- Hakim Abdullah | Chief Editor

            by Hakim Abdullah on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 01:49:18 PM PDT

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            •  What does the Qur'an say that makes Muslims (0+ / 0-)

              "civil, compassionate and free than a non-Muslim". I would like to know that, if you want to educate us, please do so. Otherwise it looks like you are avoiding answering.

              "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

              by Boisepoet on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 01:52:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think he accidently (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                leftynyc, Pandoras Box, Boisepoet

                said something modestly supremacist and isn't excited about telling us why we are all inferior.

                •  Thinking that is the case since he (0+ / 0-)

                  he won't reply. Maybe he just had to go...

                  "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

                  by Boisepoet on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 02:23:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  maybe (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Boisepoet, bobisbob

                    but he has yet (that i have seen) chosen to answer my repeated questions about how such a Muslim society would treat women, gays, and non-Muslims. - Cannot get a response...

                    You don't know the REAL Homer! It's all burping and neglect! -- Bart Simpson

                    by Pandoras Box on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 02:38:11 PM PDT

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                    •  In other posts it is always a dodge too (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Pandoras Box, bobisbob

                      Worked closely with a guy from Jordan, really liked him personally and enjoyed spending time with him when we traveled, etc. However, it amazed me some of the attitudes and ideas he had that he claims came from his understanding and teachings of Islam. This guy was no fanatic by any means, but he related to me that 'his religion' taught him that a government ran under Islamic law was the most perfect form of government, and one that he would like to see implemented everywhere.  

                      "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

                      by Boisepoet on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 03:29:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  I agree (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      leftynyc, Pandoras Box

                      he is very slippery about a lot of his positions.  I dont think he is in anyway liberal when it comes to say gay marriage or gay adoption, or women's rights.  he just wants us all to know that islam is awesome and that muslims are going to implement sharia law anyway.

                      which is hogwash as far as I'm concerned.

                    •  I was not (0+ / 0-)

                      avoiding you Pandora... its a good question that deserves a complete or a nearly complete answer. I would like to find text to support my followup of this question and perhaps I will post it as a diary entry. Is that sufficient. In the meantime look into Al-Andalus. Al-Andalus was the souther portion of the Iberian Peninsula which was an egalitarian society under Islamic rule and it was a plural society and thrived. In fact it was a period when Jewish art and science was at its peak. There are periods in history where Islam ruled non-Muslims and the non-Muslims thrived. Which is a tell-tale sign of whether or not a government is good or bad, look at how the ruled classes are treated.

                      -- Hakim Abdullah | Chief Editor

                      by Hakim Abdullah on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:37:20 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  of course the tolerant islamic spain (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        leftynyc, Pandoras Box

                        was conquered by....wait for it.....the muslims.  because they were heretics.  

                        Muslim Spain, nominally subject to the rulers (caliphs) in Damascus and Baghdad, eventually broke free from any foreign subservience. Around the years 930-1000, Cordoba excelled as the most cultured city in Europe under a stable and prosperous rule, especially during the reign of Abd-al Rahman III (proclaimed Caliph in Cordoba in 929). This enlightened ruler built a sumptuous palace, Medina Azahara, named for his favorite wife Azahara. Its magnificence in ivory, jade, ebony and alabaster rivaled or exceeded that of the Taj Mahal and yet it was totally destroyed and sacked not by the “barbarian Christians” attacking from the North but by the fanatical Muslim Berber invaders in 1010. They left hardly a stone standing.

                        During a few months in 1009, five different rulers succeeded each other and lost control of much of the provincial territories. A rebellion against loyalty to the Omayyid dynasty led to civil war and the descent of Muslim Spain into chaos. Within a generation, approximately 40 independent Muslim mini-kingdoms or emirates called taifas proclaimed their independence and enabled the Christian kingdoms to organize and make major advances in the reconquest of the peninsula.

                        The Native Jewish population of Spain (many and perhaps most Sephardi Jews were native born converts rather than migrants), always a barometer of tolerance, quite clearly preferred the Christian North to the Muslim South from the beginning of the 11th century. Severe anti-Jewish disturbances began first in Granada and the Muslim South under the Almoravids and Almohades. The great palaces, artistic achievements and part of the sophisticated irrigation works of the Omayyids and Abbasids were largely destroyed by the new invaders. By the time of the final conquest of Granada - the last remaining Muslim kingdom in 1492, almost no Jews resided there whereas more than 225 Spanish towns had their distinctive Jewish quarters (juderías) still intact on the eve of the expulsion.

                        but nice to see that atleast a nominally muslim ruler had something approaching tolerance for a certain subset of non-islamic beliefs during a short period of time in one geographic part of the world.

                        that certainly is an accomplishment.

                        •  bobisbod... check you facts... (0+ / 0-)

                          was conquered by....wait for it.....the muslims.  because they were heretics.

                          The Muslims were defeated by the Reconquista and Ferdinand. What are you talking about? There were internal struggles but that did not lead to the actual removal of Muslim rulers. It was the Reconquista that fought the Muslims there.

                      •  well, if you wanted me to think you weren't (0+ / 0-)

                        avoiding the question, you could have replied earlier then.  And your response is not an answer to my inquiries. But i will be patient and watch for your next diary in the hopes that you will address my specific questions

                        Hakim, I would ask that please keep in mind the community you are addressing. We are quite diverse - and many members of dailykos are gay, are women, and most assuredly are nonMuslim. So, these questions go to the very heart of what so many of us consider a just society. Not that we have achieved it perfectly yet here, but that's why we are HERE, as I said before, raising our voices.

                        You don't know the REAL Homer! It's all burping and neglect! -- Bart Simpson

                        by Pandoras Box on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 10:07:29 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

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