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View Diary: Women-only Space: who belongs? (182 comments)

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  •  So the butch truck driver who was your... (2+ / 0-)
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    rserven, NogodsnomastersMary

    ...antagonist was herself transgender, right, if she passed well enough to be mistaken for a guy? I've heard that some lesbians have concerns about female-to-male transgenders, so do you think it's possible that she herself might have faced some prejudice from the lesbian community?

    "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you can succeed." Nancy Pelosi

    by StupidAsshole on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 08:24:18 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  No... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NogodsnomastersMary

      ...just a butch dyke.  She vehemently denied being transgender.  Butch/femme is a whole 'nother issue. :-)

      •  Butch dykes vs. transmen (1+ / 0-)
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        rserven
        In my observation and experience, the boundary between being a butch dyke and a transman is NOT clear-cut. It looks more like a continuum.

        Proof that gender is far from binary.

        "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush

        by Ally McRepuke on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 09:58:33 AM PDT

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        •  eh... (0+ / 0-)

          ...sorry, that seems to me to take way too much away from both groups.  Sure, it's all part of the human continua on one level - you, me, everybody - but I'd be personally offended, and to some degree feel excluded from this conversation, if the comment were facing the other way.  

          •  The other way... (2+ / 0-)
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            rserven, jessical
            as in feminine gay men vs. transwomen?

            I definitely understand that many people would get offended on that comparison. And in Western societies, transwomen and gay men are totally separate categories, and don't mix much - there is no reason for them to mix, except for the shared support of the LGBT umbrella movement.

            Go to a heteronormative Asian society, however, and there will be a continuum from feminine gay men to transwomen. For example, many Thai kathoeys, despite living and working as women, have male identities at heart. The prevailing societal norms would rather have a gay man live as a woman, against his will, for a "normal heterosexual" appearance, than for him to be out and proud as a gay man, and bring shame to his family.

            "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush

            by Ally McRepuke on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 10:26:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I wasn't arguing against the idea.... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ally McRepuke

              ...of a continuum, at all.  And my comments were restricted to western LGBT culture.  What I was trying to say is that (a) the two communities you cite have profound differences between them -- differences which have resulted in great pain to people I know well -- and a casual declaration of similarity seemed -- putting myself in the shoes of my friends for a moment -- like it might make some folks feel excluded; (b) as a trans person, I see a very heavy line between folks who have or do engage in ongoing medical change of their bodies, and those who do not; and (c) I think a fair bit about exclusion from spaces, of various kinds -- I may have simply sat through too many groups where MTF after MTF complained about pronouns, while some FTM dude with 20 years of organizing and political experience sat in absolute silence, and felt like -- we are losing voices.

              FYI  I learned a tremendous amount from your posts on your thread.  This just jumped out at me though and I felt like I should say something.  

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