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View Diary: A Head in the Clouds:   The Genius of 1976 Considered. (119 comments)

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  •  Lovins wants our cars to run on natural gas (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Plan9

    Or at least, he has a Kennedy convinced of this.

    The transition from oil outlined by Lovins would occur in two stages. First, ... [efficiency, yada, yada, yada] ... Then, the remaining half of our oil demand can be replaced with a combination of natural gas and advanced biofuels.

    (The bold is mine.)

    If I were a natural gas guy and I heard someone saying that he wants to hand over the highly profitable business of selling fuel for cars to me, I would be all over myself with excitement. It's no wonder natural gas companies love this guy.

    But it goes on ...

    Even more dramatic is the potential that already exists for unlocking more energy from natural gas. According to Lovins, we can save half the natural gas we currently use -- while cutting its cost to as little as one-tenth its current price -- simply through more efficient use.

    (Again, the bold is mine.)

    Given the earlier quote above, I guess "more efficient use" means driving less. There is no other explanation given how switching over to cars powered by natural gas results in saving "half the natural gas we currently use."

    I have no idea what kind of world these people live in. Obviously it is not one that involves things like numbers and math.

    •  So what (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Turkana

      Perhaps you simply don't understand.  Easy to do when you yadda yadda those things you don't like.

      If conservatives had had their way we'd still be an English colony.

      by baba durag on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 05:59:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, I understand perfectly well (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Plan9

        but it seems that I will have to go to trouble of explaining it to the dimwitted.

        My point is that Amory Lovins loves natural gas, and what Amory Lovins preaches is good for the natural gas business.

        The part that I skipped in the quote was the same old naïve, overly vague chatter about efficiency. I felt no need to include it because efficiency and the its failure to live up to Mr. Lovins's predictions has been discussed ad nauseum in the diary above, which includes actual numbers.

        Now, if you would like to talk about efficiency, I would encourage you to address the points made in the diary, and be prepared to provide your own numbers to back up your claims. So far, all you have managed to do is remain unbelievably obtuse.

        Now, back to my point: natural gas. Lovins wants to expand the use of natural gas by using it in even more places and in even more ways. His vision for oil-free automobiles involves hydrogen, largely produced from natural gas (which makes sense, given that the vast majority of hydrogen that is produced today is made this way). But don't take my word for it; read Lovins's own words (the bold is mine):

        "Winning the Oil Endgame" will describe how to get the United States off oil completely and profitably -- even for oil companies. It suggests doing this (through) very efficient use of oil; substituting safe natural gas in applications where they're changeable, like furnaces and boilers, biofuels and waste-derived fuels and optionally hydrogen.

        So, he wants to expand the use of natural gas to additional applications. It's the first subtitute for oil that he mentions. What about cars?

        The logical way to deliver hydrogen to vehicles is to make it from natural gas, typically, at the filling station.

        Lovins has a long track record as a consultant on energy. Do you mean to tell me that he has never consulted with companies involved in the natural gas business? Do you mean to tell me that the policies he advocates do not benefit the natural gas industry?

        •  Yes, blah blah blah (0+ / 0-)

          Of the available energy sources natural gas is the cleanest.  So he likes it.  I, like him, do not agree that nuclear is cleaner.  Those who say it is are not acknowledging all the problems.

          /eox

          If conservatives had had their way we'd still be an English colony.

          by baba durag on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 06:01:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ever consider taking a job ... (0+ / 0-)

            as an "energy consultant"? Apparently, people will pay big bucks to hear someone say things like what you just said. Just consider how much your hero, Amory Lovins, had made selling these same talking points. You'd probably make a killing.

            You already have the perfect sales pitch down cold. The overly vague statements, the lack of supporting evidence, the lack of any numbers at all ... tell me, have you been practicing, or is this natural talent? ;-)

            In either case, you could have a promising future in the energy consulting business. Perhaps, one day, you too could grow bananas in the fashionable part of Colorado. (Neat, huh?)

            If you're educational background is not up to par, don't worry. Companies tend to overlook these things, if you tell them what they want to hear. As you become popular, you'll receive honorary degrees, which will make up for the fact that you have no real academic credentials. If you're lucky, you might even get away with calling yourself a "physicist" without being laughed at.

            •  Can't win on the facts? (0+ / 0-)

              Try a personal attack.

              The last refuge of the loser.

              If conservatives had had their way we'd still be an English colony.

              by baba durag on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 08:38:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Win? Facts? (0+ / 0-)

                Is this a game?

                Have you provided a single "fact" in this entire discussion? Please, do tell.

                Where have I made a personal attack?

                I have not attacked Amory Lovins. I have merely commented that he favors a natural gas intensive solution, and I have backed it up with facts -- i.e., quotes from the man himself.

                I have not attacked you. On the contrary, I have complemented you on your sharply-honed speaking skills and have suggested that you have all the makings of a fine energy consultant. My comment was helpful career advice, but I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

              •  Oh ... sorry (0+ / 0-)

                I just realized that I misread your comment. "Try a personal attack" was meant as a recommendation, since that appears to be your favorite approach to dealing with a situation in which you can provide no facts.

                Sorry for the misunderstanding.

              •  Or ... you could just try ... (0+ / 0-)

                slapping on a troll rating. Apparently, that also works when you cannot effectively argue your point. Thanks for the example of effective debate on DailyKos.

                Nice job. ;-)

                •  As your tantrums escalate (0+ / 0-)

                  You just show how weak your arguments are.

                  If conservatives had had their way we'd still be an English colony.

                  by baba durag on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 08:54:57 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well then (0+ / 0-)

                    Slap on another trollrating, so that everyone can see exactly how strong your arguments are.

                    Tantrums? Ha! I'm just having fun.

                    •  What, no TU status? (0+ / 0-)

                      I can see why.

                      If conservatives had had their way we'd still be an English colony.

                      by baba durag on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 09:01:28 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't need to trollrate to make my point n/t (0+ / 0-)
                      •  You are misusing your TU status (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Matthew B

                        Maybe you are new here.

                        Perhaps you should review the DKos FAQ on troll-rating.

                        It is not to be used if you disagree with the point of view of the commenter.

                        The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                        by Plan9 on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 12:05:36 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well (0+ / 0-)

                          I disagree with his ad hominem attacks, which are troll worthy.

                          But thanks for your input.

                          If conservatives had had their way we'd still be an English colony.

                          by baba durag on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 12:13:23 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Then you surely troll-rate Joy Busey (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LIsoundview

                            She makes racist ad hominem attacks when people point out the facts to her.  

                            So to be consistent, I would expect you to rate her according to your standard.

                            In fact a troll is actually considered someone who comes from, say Free Republic, to sow dissension and broadcast wingnut political statements and hatred at Kos.  

                            Appropriate use of troll ratings

                            An excellent discussion of when a troll-rate is appropriate, and some of the common types of trolls, can be found in the troll rating article, originally from this diary. Reading this article is highly recommended before issuing any troll-ratings.

                            Some posters create accounts at dkos strictly for the purpose of causing disruption. It is considered acceptable to troll rate all of the posts made by such people, even the ones that are not in and of themselves trollish. It should be emphasized, however, that this should not be done lightly. Before rating comments en-masse, you should be very very sure that the author is really a troll, and not just a regular poster who is having a bad day. If there is any shadow of a doubt as to whether a person is a dedicated troll, you should refrain from mass-troll-rating their comments.

                            Kos FAQ

                            The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                            by Plan9 on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 10:32:54 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  A killing, indeed (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LIsoundview, bryfry

              But the suspect 'baba durag' said we who believe nuclear to be the cleanest available energy don't acknowledge all the problems.

              That implies 'baba durag' is willing to acknowledge all the problems with natural gas.

              Go ahead then. Everyone will notice if you don't. In 25 words or fewer, or more if you like, what's the biggest problem? How do we know?

              What are the second and third, etc.

              •  When (0+ / 0-)

                natural gas produces wastes as toxic and long lasting as nuclear energy does you come on back and make your case.

                If conservatives had had their way we'd still be an English colony.

                by baba durag on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 12:14:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Just a hint (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Plan9

                  The toxic wastes of natural gas last forever.  CO2 does not degrade over time, for example.

                  http://www.iaea.org/...

                  (warning, pdf file)

                  Here's the skinny from page 3 of the above report:

                  Toxic waste per GW:

                  0.2 million tonnes per GW for natural gas (sweetening waste)

                  Here's a quote from the one company report I could find that actually said what was in their sweetening waste.  The naphthalene, coal tars and sulphur products are not wonderful.

                  The  coal  gas  is  produced  with  the  drying-sweetening  technique,meanwhile 700tons of  sweetening  waste  is  produced  per  year,  which contains    ferric  oxide ,calcium,sulphate, and  sulphur,  coal  tar,  naphthalene  and hull.  Among  them,  there  is  20%  of  sulphur,which  is  not  to  be  stored  arbitrary.>

                  compared to about 0.02 million tonnes radioactive waste for nuclear

                  another comparison.  It's also about 0.02 million tonnes toxic waste per GW for solar.  Yes PV solar yields toxic waste, both in manufacture and disposal.  Check out this report from Brookhaven National Labs:

                  http://www.pv.bnl.gov/...

                  And yes, the compounds last forever.

                  For greenhouse gas emissions for the entire life cycle of the plant, per GW:

                  Natural gas:  (units gCeq/kwh)
                  90 in stack emissions and 16 in other steps with latest tech.
                  Nuclear:  (units gCeq/kwh)
                  between 2.5 and 5.7 in other chain steps only.  No greenhouse gases in operation.

                  So as you see, natural gas is a lot more dangerous to the environment, and for longer, than nuclear power.

                  You may not like that fact, but it is true.

                  •  Yes, contrast gas pollution with nuclear waste (0+ / 0-)

                    and you quickly see which is the more environmentally friendly way to produce energy.

                    Spent nuclear fuel is shielded and isolated from the environment.  The hottest radionuclides in the waste decay the fastest.  And all of the nuclear waste eventually decays.

                    Waste from natural gas production and combustion is stored in the environment.

                    If you use household natural gas, you are getting exposed to well over 900 times as much radiation as you would if you lived next to a nuclear plant.  You get 9 millirem per year from household natural gas and .009 millirem per year from nuclear power.

                    Methane is a far worse greenhouse gas than CO2.

                    The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                    by Plan9 on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 02:56:32 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Well, (0+ / 0-)
                  long lasting: CO2 (eternally, as opposed to mere few centuries)
                  toxic: CO, NOx, SO2, gas scale
                •  That was NOT the candid rundown of NG problems (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Plan9

                  that the natural gas advocate was invited to give, in keeping with his in my opinion false complaint against us preferrers of nukes over our back fence that we do not acknowledge all the problems with nuclear energy.

                  Carbon monoxide is an amazingly toxic material that typically is produced in very much greater quantities, when a joule's worth of natural gas is burned, than spent nuclear fuel is produced when a joule of fission energy is released. Thus it is not surprising that even though the radiation hazard of spent fuel is intense and long-lasting, it kills and injures zero per year, while the carbon monoxide kills many.

                  Nuclear-generated boron will be what people burn in their houses when I have my way.

              •  Gas Problems (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Plan9, bryfry

                None of the replies on gas' problems mentions the biggest one of all, the safety hazard.  What about all the people killed or injured by the continuing litany of fires, explosions and conflagrations from natural gas that we continually read about (in tiny sidebars, for one day only of course, given that it's not nuclear).

          •  The logic involved is amazing (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            NNadir, bryfry

            Lovins is paid by the natural gas industry and isn't a shill.

            NNadir isn't paid by the nuclear industry but he is a shill.

            Got it, thanks.

            •  But ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              NNadir

              NNadir did get a free lunch (and a shirt) for his efforts. Therefore, his soul will be forever compromised. ;-)

            •  Ergo, let's go to work for Lovins! n/t (0+ / 0-)

              The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

              by Plan9 on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 12:06:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Don't forget that Amory Lovins gets to scam (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LIsoundview, bryfry

              investors.
              In the Showrooms by 2005.

              Um, wait a minute, we're not a car company!   We're a materials company!

              I'm sure the financial history of the hydrogen hyper car "industry" would represent a fascinating read if written by an honest insider.

              Somebody, besides the MacArthur Foundation is paying for that banana plantation/aerie in Snowmass.   I'm sure of that.

              As of today the median price of a home in Snowmass is 7 million dollars roughly.

              At those prices, only people like Ken Lay own houses in that area.

              I don't even know if the new Gazprom director, Gerhard Schroeder, could afford a timeshare in Snowmass.

              •  FWIW (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Plan9, NNadir

                Lovins is on the list of consultants of the Clinton global initiative.

                http://attend.clintonglobalinitiativ...

                Given the fondness for natural gas, not a wonderful choice sez I.

                http://attend.clintonglobalinitiativ...

                Here's what his corporation says it does from a press release:

                http://www.treehugger.com/...

                RMI’s recent opportunities include promoting energy efficiency throughout the military; helping Rupert Murdoch to make News Corporation climate-neutral and more profitable; strategically supporting President Bill Clinton’s initiative to help the mayors of the world’s 40 biggest cities address climate change; helping Wal-Mart double the efficiency of its heavy truck fleet by 2015, saving more than $300 million per year;supporting the State of Hawai‘i in transforming its energy strategy; educating utility investors to shift from polluting power plants to cheaper, faster, healthier, climate-safer choices; reinforcing progress in aviation, heavy-truck, and military adoption of key recommendations in RMI’s Pentagon-cofunded 2004 study Winning the Oil Endgame (www.oilendgame.com)—a roadmap for eliminating U.S. oil use by the 2040s and revitalizing the economy, all led by business for profit; and redoubling those off-oil implementation efforts in automaking and biofuels.
                Lovins concluded: "RMI earns half its revenue by consulting for many of the world’s leading corporations.

              •  Lovins used to quote Skilling on his website (0+ / 0-)

                Lovins still cites fossil fuel companies as his clients, but he has purged his online resumé since the Enron debacle, but prior to it, he was a proud consultant to Enron and had as an epigraph on his homepage:

                "Nuclear power is dead."--Jeffrey Skilling, CEO, Enron

                Lovins must have enjoyed hanging out at Snow Mass with Kenny and the boys.

                The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                by Plan9 on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 09:41:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  no, it's not (0+ / 0-)
            Nuclear power is.  Amazing that you apparently need to be reminded, but it emits no CO2.

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