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View Diary: Kids sodomized at Abu Ghraib, Pentagon has the videos - Hersh (430 comments)

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  •  Look. . . (3.00)
    You are right to blame the media.
    But the real scoundrels are the Dems in congress.  They are supposed to be the opposition. Bitching & agitating is what opposition parties do. But these fuckers in our party are scared to death of Fox news and Limbaugh.

    The media are a pack of whores. If the Dems make enough noise, they'll suddenly appear like maggots on a dead dog.

    "God told me to strike Al Qaeda and I struck, and then he instructed me to strike Saddam, which I did." GWB

    by Lords on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:13:54 PM PDT

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    •  Sorry, no (none)
      The Dems in Congress should have stood up, that's true.

      But the Dems in Congress weren't the ones raping young boys and videotaping it. They weren't the ones who decided that torture was acceptable policy. That all happened over in the Executive Branch.

      My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. Sen Carl Schurz

      by Bill Rehm on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:44:37 PM PDT

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      •  Don't be a fool (2.00)
        The Executive flew out to Iraq to do it themselves?

        You know who did this, and so do I.  Wave your "I Support The Troops" flag all you like.  I'll be over here, in the 21st century, not living in 1945.

        •  Command Responsibility (4.00)
          You are right in that President Bush did not personally fly into Baghdad, feed plastic turkey to the troops at Baghdad International Airport and then decide "What the hell, I'll go rape an Iraqi boy."  The actual execution of the rapes are the responsibility of the rapists, and for them, I hope that they are punished to the fullest extent of the applicable law (UCMJ, US criminal law, or Iraqi criminal law).

          However, if Hersh's statements are to be believed, and all the evidence that has come out of Abu Ghraib and other US run prisons in Iraq suggests that he knows what he is talking about, there is a systemic failure here.  That is the responsibility of the commanders to fix.  If there was a single rape in which the rapists were quickly and severely punished, and guidelines and proactive protective measures were then installed as soon as the command team realized that there was a problem, then it would not be the fault of the Executive branch/President Bush.

          However, we have repeated examples of torture, torture-lite, rape, and hostage taking over a several month period.  We have repeated reports of individuals with incredible amounts of moral courage coming forward to their superiors saying that something that they have seen is morally and criminally wrong.  We have the knowledge that the chain of command extending up to and including President Bush knew or should have known that potential war crimes were being committed by American forces or by Iraqi forces under American command at Abu Ghraib.  Yet they decided to not take corrective measures until the light of day forced them to do so.  

          This is a systemic failure of leadership and command responsbility.  The officers and civilian leadership knew that they were doing something wrong frequently, repeatedly and for months at a time and yet did not change their actions.  The buck kept on getting passed back and forth and human rights abuses and war crimes continued.  That is where the greatest crime lies, the unwillingness of the executive branch to step in and order American soldiers to follow basic guidelines of civilized behavior and not to commit war crimes.    

          Come on over to Fester's Place for blogging on politics, urban budgetary crisi and the New England Patriots

          by fester on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 07:11:01 AM PDT

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          •  and don't forget (none)
            some very interesting memos from the DOJ on what is and is not torture, how the POTUS is above all laws, etc.

            It started at the top with the tone if not with direct orders.  It started at the top with Getmo and the express desire to create a land that law forgot.  It started at the top with the pullout of the World Court.  It started at the top with a willful disregard for the rights of the US citizens not to mention the rights of non-citizens who happen to live in a country we decided to invade on false pretenses.

            I blame President Bush just as surely as the Republcants (R) would blame Clinton.  

      •  The Democrats did decide torture was acceptable (none)
        They're accepting it right now.  

        This particular "unacceptable policy", a.k.a. war crimes, should draw a response, first of impeachment, then imprisonment, of the Republican executives responsible for the policy.  

        But I guess impeachment and inditement are for dodgy land deals and extra-marital affairs, not for the kidnapping, imprisonment, starvation, torture, rape, sodomy, and murder of innocent men, women, and children.  

        Seriously, where is the outrage, and what are we going to tell the children?  I really want to know.  

        •  And there's no end in sight... (none)
          With two pro-war millionaires to choose from this November.

          People are terrible. They can bear anything.

          by soulfrieda on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 10:09:11 AM PDT

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        •  Impeachment (3.50)
          isn't up to the Democrats; it's up to the Republican majority. Which is why we had impeachment when we didn't need it, with Clinton, and don't have it now when we do.  

          And yes, if the Republicans had any decency they would be cooperating with the Dems to bring articles of impeachment.  But can enough of them see past their own lockstep loyalty and short-term political expediency to do the right thing?  I honestly don't know.

          Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. - Albert Einstein

          by Leslie in CA on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 10:13:20 AM PDT

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