Skip to main content

View Diary: Iran is not dangerous (but Sarkozy is) (198 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Huh? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Marie, bronte17, scionkirk, Euroliberal

    the "Scapegoat Status of Muslims"? Would you care to substantiate that? And no, breathless and over excited commentary on the 2005 "riots" does not count.

    And " a dangerous nation"? Overgeneralising a bit, maybe?

    •  Here (0+ / 0-)

      Discrimination against Muslims is very apparent. But if you're expecting some kind of empirical proof, you're being naive. Racism against African-Americans in America is only identified by scattered incidences, the same goes for Muslims in France.

      French Muslims face job discrimination

      France's disaffected Muslim businessmen

      France Starts Facing Up to Anti-Muslim Discrimination

      French Muslims Struggle to Achieve Success

      Sarkozy jumps into row over Muslim airport staff (supports it)

      Muslims are waging civil war against us, claims police union

      Sarkozy's French Council of Muslim Faith faces a barrage of criticism from the Muslim community.

      Sarkozy refuses Islam IN France but claims to endorse an Islam OF France...

      Headscarves and Discrimination in Europe

      The reason I use the word "dangerous" is because I still remember what happened in America a few years ago. Neo-cons coupled with a growing resentment towards Islam is NEVER a good thing. Just look at what we did...

      "Don't talk to me about atrocities; all war is an atrocity." - Lord Kitchener

      by otheruser on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 11:41:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not going to deny (13+ / 0-)

        that there is racism and discrimination in France, but you also have to keep in mind that the English press loves to show France under the least favorable light, and to make it look like the French model does not work and pontificate that France should be more like the English or the Americans, who are so much more successful - including at integration of minorities.

        The first thing to note is that the majority of immigrants from North Africa do not identify and were not identified as "Muslims" until 9/11 happened, and the Great Big Fear of the Muslims was spread around (including, notably by Sarkozy). Most of them in France are secular, like the rest of the population. They were seen as "Arabs" previously, not as "Muslims", and anything that encourages that trend is a bad thing - which is why of course rifghtwing politicians in France and rightwing pundits elsewhere do it.

        They are integrating no worse than the Poles or the Italians did a couple of generations ago, but, of course, it's under way and it is not a straightforward thing. But that's not a fashionable thing to say.

      •  I believe (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jerome a Paris, protectspice

        Sarkozy will adopt ALL of Rovian political tricks

        • blame minority for national economy slow down
        • use media to paint crimes are done by minority
        • immigration
        • (tho' I doubt Sarkozy will adopt the 'protestant' talking point (gay/abortion/rupture) since French is catholic)
        • economic wise, he'll be cut tax for upper income, reduce social service, anti union, etc etc.

        It'll be interesting if europe will burn with anti-semitism rhetoric soon after Bush/neocon rightiwng experiment fails and the truth comes out.

        Use Tor and PGP on the net. (google it)

        by fugue on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 11:58:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The first cabinet member (0+ / 0-)

        of North African descent was appointed recently by Sarkozy. Almost half of his cabinet are women. He has raided the Socialist Party for some of their most talented leaders. He has a degree of contempt for the Ecole Superieur elite that has ruled public life in France for many years. Many French people admire Sarkozy as a leader determined to take on the institutionally privileged. That is hardly a picture of some latter-day Bonaparte. Bonaparte was a mass murderer distinguished only by the efficiency with which he dispatched his victims. Sarkozy will be good for France and good for Europe.

        Ambition is when you follow your dreams. Insanity is when they follow you.

        by Batfish on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 12:04:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Check your facts (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jxg, psnyder, dragoneyes, galaxy33
          • There have been a number cabinet members of North African (or plain African) descent before, but somehow Sarkozy managed to claim that his were the first.
          • he's been part of the 'elite' that has been ruling public life in France for the past 30 years, as the mayor of Neuilly, the suburb where all the elite lives, gets married and buys real estate, as a hack in the RPR machine, and as a lawyer for the same elite. He grew up in a hotel particulier (a stand alone house inside the city). He IS the institutionally privileged.
          • Bonapartism usually refers to the second Bonaparte - Napoleon III, who ruled between 1851 and 1870. And Napoléon, whom you refer to, has a much better image in France than in the English language litterature, given how the English were terrified by him and are still obsessed by him 2 centuries latere. He is also remembered as the creator of the Code Civil, and much of the backbone of the French administration, which remains to this day.

          It's good that you are so optimistic about Sarkozy's prospects. We'll see. It's a bit strange for a kossacks to be so supportive of an unashamedly rightwing, demagogic politician which uses the same tricks as your own rightwing.

          •  Perhaps you are right (0+ / 0-)

            with respect to the North African cabinet members, but I would submit that there are cabinet officers and cabinet officers. Appointing a woman of North African descent to as important a post as Justice Minister is a step up from the past. Perhaps, you would like to follow up with a detailed listing of cabinet members of such heritage. The appointment of Rachida Dati along with 6 other women marks the Sarkozy cabinet as the most diverse of any. In addition Sarkozy's appointment of Kouchner, a founder of Medicins san Frontier as Foreign Minister hardly marks him out as the rightwing nut you assert that he is.

            You claim that Sarkozy is part of the elite, and that may be so. But he is clearly an elitist in the Chirac sense. He is a mould-breaker, and that's not a characterisitc of elitists. Most French people I have talked to, and admittedly that's French scientists, welcome the change he is promising. As you say, we shall see.

            What is strange is your concept of where most kossacks are on the political spectrum. Sarkozy would fit well within the center of political opinion, maybe even a little to the left. And that's where most kossacks are, it seems to me. You appear to be further to the left than most. Thus, to you, a man that has been able to recruit so many of your fellow socialists to his cause must be some kind of evil trickster who decieves others into doing his will. Perhaps he is just a very smart man determined to improve his country by hiring the best people he can irrespective of their party affiliation. It worked for Bill Clinton; maybe it will work for Sarkozy.

            Ambition is when you follow your dreams. Insanity is when they follow you.

            by Batfish on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 01:31:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  asdf (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              psnyder, dragoneyes, galaxy33

              Jospin also had several women at senior positions, including Elisabeth Guigou at Justice, Martine Aubry in charge of a very large social ministry. Earlier, Mitterrand had Edith Cresson as prime minister. As to 'heritage ministries', google Kofi Yamgnane, Harlem Désir, Azouz Begag, and a number of others.

              What you may not know about Sarkozy's cabinet is that all the "symbolic" posts have been given very restricted roles, with the real job done by people in Sarkozy's first circle of advisors. For instance, Kouchner is not in charge of diplomacy, Jean-David Levitte (Sarkozy's national security advisor) is. Michèle Alliot-Marie was given the ministry of the interior, but was stripped of a number of competences which were given to Sarkozy's confidents (like Brice Hortefeux, who is minister of immigration and national identity, which captured a number of key services, or Claude Guéant, Sarkozy's chief of staff, who used to be his chief of staff at the ministry of the interior before he became president). Dati is a catastrophe already, with half her staff having resigned, but of course she cannot go. Christine Lagarde, the "minister for the rich", is already out of favor for pushing too obviously for a pro-rich and pro-corporate agenda.

              Sarkozy is not a mould breaker, he just wants to be liked and respected by his billionaire friends - Lagardère, Bouygues, Bolloré, Pinault. Once you understand that, his personality becomes a lot clearer.

              As to the left-right divide, well, I vehemently disagree - or simply I would say that you have swallowed the notion of the US right that the middle is the point halfway between them and Joe Lieberman, or maybe between them and Hillary Clinton. On any non-American scale, and even on any reasonable US scale, Sarkozy is quite far to the right (especially his hateful discourse against immigrants or his explicitly pro-corporate economic agenda and his tax cuts going to the rich).

              He has not recruited many socialists - Kouchner has always been about his personal ego (it's funny to read his anti-Sarkozy rants from a few months before the election) and, like I said, he has no real power. Strauss-Kahn going to the IMF is just competence recognised for a non-political (in domestic terms, I mean) job. Not that the Socialists needed the help to self-destruct, driven as they are by deep - and unseemly - personality conflicts, but that's another issue...

              Don't believe ANY headline about Sarkozy. Go dig a bit. It's indispensable each time.

              •  Well, I should stop getting my news (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Jerome a Paris

                the IHT. But, as you may know, we Americans really aren't very interested in European leaders too much unless they have some direct effect on us. Still I hope for good things for France, one of my favorite countries.

                Ambition is when you follow your dreams. Insanity is when they follow you.

                by Batfish on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 02:36:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Not to defend Napoleon III, but (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jerome a Paris

            Baron Von Hausmann helped make a might nice city. :-)

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site