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View Diary: SCHIP Stories: Republicans Getting Grief From All Angles (138 comments)

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  •  Why don't democrats run ads like this? (10+ / 0-)

    How come we don't call these guys out when they vote like this?   Why does it take conservatives Christians to run ads with some spine?

    •  Good point, but (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marykk, I Push Pixels

      anyone pointing to hypocrisy can point away. It would be nice to have an increase in numbers doing so that would include Democrats who were elected to say such things.

      Nevertheless, support for such ideas need not be an either/or proposition!

      The law is slacked and judgment doth never go forth: the wicked compass about the righteous and wrong judgment proceedeth - Habakkuk 1:4

      by vox humana on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 09:55:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And may I add... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        papercut

        it is good to see Chevron getting on board with these sentiments. Their ads here make the symbiosis clear.

        We can certainly vouch for their devotion to life on Earth, present and future, can't we?

        Don't we?

        The law is slacked and judgment doth never go forth: the wicked compass about the righteous and wrong judgment proceedeth - Habakkuk 1:4

        by vox humana on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 09:58:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  We've got a couple of Alabama Democrats (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mcfly, papercut, myrealname, afguy08

        Trying to get elected to Congress to do some things differently.  Greg Warren and Benjamin Lodmell have both been very critical of the Republican vote against SCHIP -- all the Alabama Republicans voted against it.

        Warren is running against Robert Aderholt and Lodmell against Jo Bonner -- both of whom need to be retired.

        •  Same in Arizona (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mooncat

          We've got a slew of people working for Rick Renzi's old seat, and in CD-3, we've got Bob Lord fighting John Shadegg to represent the people of central Arizona. FYI John Shadegg took to the floor of the house after Bush's veto to call the program either a fraud or sham, can't remember which.

          "Its' got to be done and done quickly, so let's get it done." - General Henry 'Hap' Arnold

          by afguy08 on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 10:57:37 PM PDT

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    •  Pro-life does not necessarily equal conservative (18+ / 0-)

      Catholic Social Teaching is systematically progressive across the board, except with regard to sexual issues.  It would be just as much a mistake for the progressive movement to dismiss pro-life progressives as it is for conservatives to always vote only on abortion.  This issue should not be the sole litmus test for political participation.

      "They say you've revolutionised American politics merely by not being dumb." -Mark Helprin, Freddy and Fredericka

      by Matt W on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 10:46:15 PM PDT

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      •  Which means it is not progressive at all (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        junta0201

        Catholic social teaching is just a more refined way of saying: God hates fags. Why this odious method of stomping on gay and lesbian people is regarded as anything other than a new holocaust is beyond me. To put up a system of thought that consistently devalues a group of people as progressive strikes me as mindless.

        Why should lesbians and gays be always the first candidates to be thrown under the bus? Or burned at the stake?

        Odious endorsement of gay bashing.

        •  I apologize (7+ / 0-)

          I assure you that there's no intent to offend on my part.  CST represents a set of principles to uphold: respect for human dignity, care for the environment, dignity of work and rights of workers, solidarity, option for the poor and vulnerable, call to family, community, and participation.  Very little of this is about sexuality at all.  Many Catholics vehemently disagree with the position of the bishops on gays and lesbians and point to the principles of CST to defend their support of the dignity of all human persons and full participation in political and social life for everyone.  Two years ago, I marched with my parish and 3 others in the Boston Pride Parade.  The priest at my parish, who made it a point to welcome and embrace gays and lesbians, married or not, was subsequently fired.  There are Catholics of conscience.

          "They say you've revolutionised American politics merely by not being dumb." -Mark Helprin, Freddy and Fredericka

          by Matt W on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 11:10:23 PM PDT

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          •  Then why are they as scarce as unicorns? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Matt W, junta0201

            There are Catholics of conscience.

            While the existence of such Catholics may be probable, where are they when the chips are down? Busily supporting their Bishop on making gays and lesbians second class citizens, that's where.

            As long as Catholics march to the Bishops' tune, why should any gay or lesbian take seriously their claimed positions? Just another opportunity to dialoge with our oppressors. Which we don't need. And we must make sure other liberals, libertarians and progressives don't get sucked into the fake tolerance meme.

            •  Not where I live (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RoIn, marykk, Matt W

              I've never seen anyone do what you're saying.  

              I've always seen that as a Southern American Baptist/Evangelical thing, actually.  Or South American Catholic.  But US/Canadian, not from churches I've been in.

              •  Sadly (0+ / 0-)

                The American Catholic Church is changing, at the hands of the current generation of ultra-right wing bishops.  It's become at once more restrictive in terms of sexuality and the family and more "Americanized," meaning that it seeks to adopt the trappings of Evangelical Protestantism in order to stem the flight of white Catholics to "Gospel" mega-churches.  Increasingly, it is also embracing the "hate liturgy" of anti-gay and Lesbian rhetoric.

                I think Sen. Clinton would make a very good president.

                by bink on Fri Oct 12, 2007 at 12:35:50 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Dale with all respect I understand you are (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              myrealname, marykk, Matt W, dconrad, jay w

              passionate about this issue but these comments dont deserve a TR. Not because I am in full agreement with Matt W but because he does not deserve a TR I am countering each TR with a rec. Read further down in the thread. This guy, Matt W is sincere. I dont believe he is bullshitting about marching or supporting gay rights. He doesnt support EVERYTHING said by bishops and other catholic leaders. I consider myself a recovering catholic and loathe the church I was forced to attend until I was 13 and I am 100% opposed to ANY suppresion of gay rights and today I do not belong to any organized religion. His comments are not TR material.

              There is a principal which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation.H.Spencer

              by TKK on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 11:34:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I have removed the tr (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Matt W

                Looking back, what sets me off, here and other places, is the assertion that the RC or Evangelicals or whoever do such good stuff we should all just get along. What is invariably left out is the genuine suffering these groups directly and deliberately inflict on lesbians and gay men. When I see a diarist describe this pain as:

                Catholic Social Teaching is systematically progressive across the board, except with regard to sexual issues.

                According to Matt my life as a gay man, and the lives of all the gay men I have loved and cared for, is just a trivial 'sexual issue'. Nothing important there. Nothing worth caring about. See the cute babies. And the soup kitchen. On and on.

                What I do not hear from Matt is any comprehension of the evil and sadism of everyday common practice of the RC as gay people experience it. The teaching that gays are 'inherently disordered'. That gay people have no rights of any sort. That it is perfectly in accord with the teachings of the magistrum to fire every gay and lesbian in your business. That even legally married gay couples can not adopt.

                I hear no recognition of this from MattW. No statement that he recognizes the suffering his contributions to the RC directly inflict on gays and lesbians. And I note that 17 people have endorsed this type of indifference.

                Rather than marching, MattW and his fans might confront the bishops and priests who constantly fan the flames of hate. And tell them there will be no more contributions until the pogroms stop. That would impress me.

                •  I agree with you (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DaleA

                  I can totally see where your reaction comes from, and to some degree I feel it is warranted.  I do usually try to be careful in how I word things and truly didn't mean to imply that the demonization of gays and lesbians by the RC church is trivial or ignorable.

                  My actions with respect to the church have included:

                  1. Supporting priests who are willing to stand up for the rights of GLBT folk.
                  1. Protesting anti-gay actions outside the chancery in Boston.
                  1. Protesting, on the state capital steps, the attempt by the RCAB to ballottize civil rights by supporting a public referendum on gay marriage in Massachusetts.
                  1. Supporting events featuring such prominent gay Catholics as James Alison.

                  I'm certainly not perfect; it may be that seeking a coalition, say to fight poverty, with an organization with a condemnable attitude toward gays is not acceptable.  But I'm certainly not willing to dismiss a cannon of thought, built up over centuries, that supports social justice based on the short-sightedness of a few (admittedly powerful) contemporary figures.  Particularly when the social justice cannon is clearly at odds with hatred, intolerance, and injustice of any kind.  To me, that's throwing the baby out with the bath water.  

                  The sexual theology of the Catholic (and most other Christian) churches is seriously and fatally anachronistic, not just with regard to gays and lesbians, but in nearly every other way as well (it is patriarchal, celebrates virginity, denigrates human bodies, idealizes celibacy, and is generally authoritarian and repressive.)  Clearly this has to change and people are advocating for it.  You ask people of conscience to confront bishops and priests; we do, but that's not the point; change has to come from the bottom up.  If we aren't in the pews, at meetings, at rallies, acting in church life, we legitimate the power that bishops and priests have to define the issues and tone of discourse.  

                  "They say you've revolutionised American politics merely by not being dumb." -Mark Helprin, Freddy and Fredericka

                  by Matt W on Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 10:38:07 AM PDT

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            •  James Joyce... (6+ / 0-)

              ...once described the Cathoic Church as "Look, here comes everybody."  There are 1.1 BILLION Catholics in the world and to lump all of them in the same category is absurd.

              In the US there are 70 million and they run the spectrum from Martin Sheen, Dennis Kucinich, on one end to Pat Buchannan and Phylis Shaffley on the other (and all points in between) and Catholics everywhere regardless of their stripe have disagreements with the institutional church -- always have, always will.

              Chruch is like politics -- ultimatelyy it is all local.  My parish is very welcoming of gay and lesbians be their in a relationship or not and groups like the Catholic Worker (or Catholic Worker and Pax Christi) fall firmly in with progressives on matters of social justice and respecting the human diginity of ALL people and have been at the forefront of a lot of opposition to capital punishment, the death pentaly, immigration reform etc.  Sterotyping all Catholics as right should be no more palatable for progressives the the streotyping of any group of people.

        •  I disagree (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marykk, Matt W, TKK

          I know at my Catholic school it was all very open and progressive.

          In fact, much more so than the public schools I've been at, due to the addition of different religions that are themselves against gays.

          I don't know if what was taught is "Catholic Social Teaching" though.

      •  I don't agree with (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        myrealname, marykk, Matt W, dconrad, TKK

        Catholics on much, and I especially don't agree with their stance on homosexuality, but you don't deserve a TR for this comment.

        •  I AGREE & is the primary reason I am countering (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Odysseus, RoIn, marykk, Matt W

          each TR with a rec. Read further down in the thread. This guy, Matt W is sincere. He doesnt support EVERYTHING said by bishops and other catholic leaders. I consider myself a recovering catholic and am very much opposed to ANY suppresion of gay rights but his comments are not TR material.

          There is a principal which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation.H.Spencer

          by TKK on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 11:27:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I said conservative christians (0+ / 0-)

        The Roman Catholic church is not a bastion of liberal religious beliefs.

    •  The group seems progressive on most issues. NT (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marykk, Matt W, TKK

      NT

    •  Because... (0+ / 0-)

      They accuse Democrats of playing politics with faith, and Bill Kristol goes on Fox News and says Nancy Pelosi is pretending to pray for the president to not veto SCHIP.

      Remember, Democrats can't touch issues of faith like helping the poor or looking beyond skin color. But IOKIYAR, and you can also let James Dobson run all the ads he wants for your re-election.

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