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View Diary: Muslims are the New Jews: Bigotry courtesy of the NY Times (183 comments)

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  •  Michael (0+ / 0-)

    That reasoning is wrong - don't fall back on that.

    "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." Muadib

    by Shane Hensinger on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 01:00:39 PM PDT

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    •  Sorry - not you (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MBNYC

      Don't know why I called you that - I don't know your first name from Adam!

      Anyway - I disagree with the reasoning.,

      "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." Muadib

      by Shane Hensinger on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 01:01:57 PM PDT

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    •  The point I'm trying to make (4+ / 0-)

      perhaps inartfully, is that the problem we secular Western liberals face with violent religious extremism isn't confined to Muslims. What we're seeing, and I submit that it's little different in intent regardless of which religious tradition gives rise to it, is a violent reaction to modernity on the part of disaffected fundamentalists.

      That's why you have radical fundamentalist Christians - such as the Army of God, referenced above, that bombs clinics, gay bars and shoots abortion providers - as well as murderous Muslims, Hindus and even, God help us, Buddhists, in Sri Lanka.

      The problem of violent fundamentalism isn't confined to Islam, is my point.

      "Listen here, my little Bolshevik cabin donkey" - Gen. JC Christian, Patriot

      by MBNYC on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 01:50:23 PM PDT

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      •  You seem to be be growing n/t (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Noah in NY, james risser

        The notion that not talking to people is somehow punishment to them is ridiculous. Barack Obama, July 23, 2007

        by litho on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 01:55:13 PM PDT

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      •  The problem with extremism (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MBNYC, Eric S

        is a problem in all religions (which is why, as Chris Hitchens says" "Religion ruins everything). But its impact has been felt more strongly in Islam. We can argue about the reasons for that - whether they be cultural, tribal, political or religious. But I agree with the point made by the paratrooper guy - burying our heads in the sand doesn't make the problem go away.

        "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." Muadib

        by Shane Hensinger on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 02:27:51 PM PDT

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        •  Yes and no. (0+ / 0-)

          Sure, there's plenty of violent Muslim extremism at this point in time. Meanwhile, militant Hindus in India are massacring Muslims in their hundreds and thousands, the same is happening in Chechnya, happened recently in Bosnia, and so on and so forth.

          If the point is that right now, in late 2007, violence by adherents of Islam is more widespread or more at the forefront of our consciousness, sure. If the point is that this is because of something intrinsic to Islam, I think that argument is invalidated by the bloody history - and in many cases, bloody present - of all religions or more specifically, their adherents.

          "Listen here, my little Bolshevik cabin donkey" - Gen. JC Christian, Patriot

          by MBNYC on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 02:42:01 PM PDT

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          •  The point is - now n/t (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MBNYC, Eric S

            "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." Muadib

            by Shane Hensinger on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 02:44:21 PM PDT

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          •  I'm not saying it's because (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MBNYC, Eric S, Shane Hensinger

            "Islam is bad" or anything like that. Heck, when taken literally, there are verses in the King James Bible that claim slavery is OK, and women should obey their husbands. (I need to have my wife read the latter!).

            Many good and bad things have been done in the name of religion. Historically religion has motivated people to take large scale actions, both positive and negative.

            (Right Now) mass violence is a huge problem in the Muslim religion. And I would like to see more done about it from within.

            Think about this: What if a group of extremist Seventh Day Adventists blew up a Catholic church and killed hundreds of people. Their reasoning, "Saturday is the day of rest!". Almost universally the SDA church leaders, and its member would be outraged. There would be mass efforts to separate themselves from these terrorists.

            I would like to see the same among Muslim leaders and members.

            Looks to me like every bit of your investigative work has occured on the internet. That's. Not. Investigative. Journalism.

            by USArmyParatrooper on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 02:56:36 PM PDT

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            •  Your not seeing it... (4+ / 0-)

              I would like to see the same among Muslim leaders and members.

              ...doesn't mean it isn't there.

              To see these condemnations, you will need to go to foreign and alternative news sources.

              Now, ask yourself why the MSM have trouble locating these people although I found them by googling?

              They ain't looking for them. It just might interfer with the idea that Islam is problem.

              "That killing of innocent civilians is absolutely forbidden in Islam and anyone who contemplates or commits any such act, does so against the teachings of Islam."

              The statement adds action has been taken to regulate the activities of every mosque to ensure worshippers are given a message of "calmness and civic responsibility responsibility".

              The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

              by callmecassandra on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 03:25:10 PM PDT

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          •  Some things are intrinsic to specific religions. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            skrekk, MBNYC, Shane Hensinger

            One relevant example is the lack of a central authority in Islam, not that I care for the central authorities in any other religion, but this empowers many otherwise marginal factions.  There is presently an acknowledged "fatwa problem," with too many ostensible authorities issuing too many edicts.

            Another is the limitation that Koran only be used in the original Arabic, so that many followers are actually unaware of the actual or precise content of their own holy book - a true "reformation" problem.

            Another is the historical singlarity of church and state, as well as the present desire of many to return to that condition.

            Islam is unique in many ways.

            I'm one tough gazookus which hates all palookas,
            What ain't on the up and square....

            by Eric S on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 07:17:33 PM PDT

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            •  Myth #278 of Islam (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sofia

              Another is the limitation that Koran only be used in the original Arabic, so that many followers are actually unaware of the actual or precise content of their own holy book - a true "reformation" problem.

              This is one of those odd myths of Islam that has little relationship to reality. Yes, the Qur'an is only the Qur'an when it's published in Arabic.  Yes, formal prayer (salat) is performed only in Arabic.  No, we Muslims do understand what is in the Qur'an.  For one thing, there are such things known as "translations." ;) And even in those places in the Qur'an where there can be multiple meanings to a particular word (fairly commonplace in a language that is highly metaphorical), some of the translators will provide the other possible meanings in the footnotes to clarify matters.  And then, of course, many (if not most) Muslims learn Arabic anyway, if only to understand the Qur'an in the original language.

              The real reformation is in trying to remove all the ignorance and misunderstandings from the minds of non-Muslims and providing a true knowledge of Islam in its place.

              •  Catholics said the same thing before vernacular. (0+ / 0-)

                Sorry, but I don't think the little boys memorizing their Koran in Pakistani madrassas are so aware as you suggest.  At minimum, the necessity of a conduit to the words themselves reinforces outside authority - as it did prior to Luther in Germany.

                And the imported imams at European mosques in the likes of Hamburg and London are not always reliable interpreters of subtle concepts to their second generation immigrant followers; teachers for whom German or English may be a second or barely understood language.  

                I know as well, Jewish boys learning their Bible in Hebrew at yeshiva, are far from the level of comprehension that would permit them their own individual understanding.  

                And on understanding one's holy books generally, that is a swamp all by itself, and I doubt that the world's Muslims have a special leg up.  Learning a "highly metaphorical" book, if even without language problems is rather challenging.

                And I didn't mean to suggest anything I didn't explicitly say, but to the larger issue - you don't think Islam is unique, as I said... or are you just trying to pick a fight?

                I'm one tough gazookus which hates all palookas,
                What ain't on the up and square....

                by Eric S on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 11:15:39 AM PDT

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                •  No, not trying to pick a fight... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sofia

                  ...just trying to give some straight dope to a topic that's often misunderstood.  You are not the first person who's raised this particular - and IMO, erroneous - argument before.

                  Yes, of course, when kids are learning the Qur'an at a very young age, they are often taught by rote.  But little boys eventually become big boys, and most of them learn the meaning of the Qur'an, either in their own language or by having learned classical Arabic.  I wouldn't expect little kids to have comprehension necessarily of any particular religious text, but I would expect this of adults.  

                  As for "imported imams," what you said may be true for some, although the "imported imams" that I've met have all been fluent in English.  Even so, there are many other educational resources available worldwide besides imams, native or imported.  One of the things that has struck me in my travels and in meeting other Muslims from around the world (from about two dozen countries so far) has been the similarity of understanding about Islam.  It hasn't really mattered how one has learned about Islam (from one's parents, from an imam, from a madrassah, from the Internet, and so on), most Muslims have very similar understandings about Islam.  Of course, there are disagreements on particular details, but considering the potential for confusion that could result, the disagreements are, for the most part, not that common.

                  What I'm trying to say is that, you've made this assumption that Muslims don't understand the Qur'an very well, and that this assumption doesn't correspond with reality.  But don't take my word for it; go talk with Muslims in your neighborhood and see what they have to say.

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