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View Diary: A Glimmer of Hope; fees increase on H-1B guest worker Visas (203 comments)

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  •  Highly skilled (0+ / 0-)

    These restrictions are having bad effects industry wide.

    What do you think companies will do with those jobs when they cannot fill them?
    If we let them hire a foreign worker temporarily, they will keep the job and the company/office here. Its Econ 101 - our economy benefits and when an American citizen with the skill set comes along, you hire him/her. But this is what is happening now:

    Microsoft was the third-largest sponsor of H1-B visas in the last federal fiscal year. But it still didn't get all the foreign workers it wanted into the country. The company's government affairs director said this was one motivation for Microsoft to open a new software development center in Canada.
    <snip>
    About 8 percent of Mountain View-based Google Inc.'s employees currently work under H1-B visas. This year, the company posted 70 new foreign hires overseas when they couldn't get visas. They'll try again next year.
    <snip>
    Hypres Inc., a company that develops superconducting integrated circuits in Elmsford, N.Y., operates with 35 highly specialized researchers. An extensive job search recently identified one match -- in Sweden.

    •  Since Congress, Compete America, Harris Miller (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BobOak, uscitizenvoter

      If we let them hire a foreign worker temporarily, they will keep the job and the company/office here. Its Econ 101

      And the rest have been complaining about 'a shortage of high-skilled workers' for longer than I have been an electrical engineer and working in the high-tech field I will leave you with two things:

      1.) Anyone who has any logic and critical thinking skills at all would couple the fact that the people who have been screaming 'shortage' for more than ten years now are the same people empowered to do something about it with the fact that they have not -- yet they still advertise the H1B/L1 guest-worker programs as 'temporary measures' until such time as they can induce kids to go into the same job sectors that they are busy offshoring and inshore outsourcing to foreign labor.

      2.) The same person who invented "the jobs that Americans can't do" invented the term ... wait for it -- and pay particular attention to the date here ... "the jobs Americans won't do".

      But then, I'm jaded. I never took Econ 101. I took Engineering Economic Analysis.

      <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 07:42:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  note Pfaffenberger's solution (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Nightprowlkitty, RevenantX

        way back in 1999.

        What's crystal-clear is that a variety of anti-immigration organizations are using the H1-B worker to inflame public sentiment against immigration of any sort. Fight the H1-B program, they say, and preserve jobs for Americans. Conservative presidential aspirant Pat Buchanan sees the H1-B battle as the leading edge in opening a wider public debate concerning immigration policy. The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) draws on H1-B animus to promote its campaign for significant reductions in all forms of immigration; Negative Population Growth (NPG) also draws on the H1-B debate, but calls for the elimination of all forms of immigration.

        Defending the Programming Profession
        Still with me? We've picked our way through the evidence, and the picture seems reasonably clear: the ITAA did indeed exaggerate the scope of the worker shortage. Contra ITAA President Miller, you don't have to be a nutcase to see an ulterior motive in the ITAA's lobbying and publicity efforts. All it takes is a good dose of judicious cynicism--and if you don't feel at least partly cynical about Washington, get counseling. To be sure, IT workers are indeed scarce in some fields, but there's also ample evidence of rampant age discrimination against older IT workers.

        But I part company with the anti-immigration groups who believe that the industry's target is the "American worker". The real victim of H1-B and rampant age discrimination is the very notion of computer programming as a profession--and paradoxically, the solution lies partly in not only allowing foreigner IT professionals to immigrate to the U.S., but to receive a green card--the first step to full U.S. citizenship.

        ...

        So what's the answer? The programming profession's problems won't be solved overnight, but here's a place to start. Programmers everywhere should demand good working conditions for all workers in the profession—including foreign workers. If there really is a need for foreign IT professionals, let's make sure they're treated the way programmers everywhere ought to be treated. That means, at the minimum, bringing these workers in as legal immigrants with all the rights and privileges enjoyed by a future citizen of the United States.

        Perhaps if those at the forefront of this issue chose to follow Pfaffenberger's advice, as opposed to aligning with the very anti-immigrant advocates he warns against...we wouldn't even be having this dicussion today.

        •  God (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          uscitizenvoter

          That is absurd AND it's also absurd because we have a glut of highly qualified engineers in this country already!  

          anti-immigrant my ass.  How about US domestic labor organizations is more like it.

          You post H-1B propaganda on here?  You post crap designed to promote guest worker Visas on here????

          You uprate brazen troll worthy comments that call Americans fat, lazy, stupid peasants on here?????

          http://blog.noslaves.com

          by BobOak on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 09:29:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  it's superscaler's link (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nightprowlkitty, RevenantX

            to a 1999 article in Linux Journal called "Is There an "Alarming" Shortage of IT Workers?" that lays out the whole case that there is no shortage of tech workers , there is age discrimination, insourceing of cheap workers etc ...basically your whole case...made back in 1999...that's why he posted the link.

            http://www.programmersguild.org/...

            He just, neglected? to mention the authors suggested solution...just figured that since I actually read the whole article ..which by the way backs up exactly what you've been saying all along ...I would post up the author's solution.

            Unless super is now in the habit of posting "H1B propaganda", as you have called it...I must assume that this particular article is one supported by your group.

            BTW the author even mentions y'all by name. The next paragraph after the section I quoted says:

            n the meantime, join up--the Association for Computing Machinery (ACM) has long defended the programming profession, and there's a new organization called the Programmer's Guild that deserves support, too. To keep up with these issues, check out the new newsgroup us.issues.occupations.computer-programmers (if your ISP doesn't carry it, ask them to get it).

             

          •  you will also note (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nightprowlkitty, RevenantX

            that the link for the "H1B propaganda" comes from your own group's website.

            •  not so (0+ / 0-)

              It's not on our website and I would NEVER use something like that which is so inaccurate.

              Even the Duke studies, I point out repeatedly the insanity with his own research on some of these conclusions.  No one who takes labor economics seriously would subscribe to unlimited immigration or put our Academic system designed first and foremost to educate our citizenry to become a glorified green card machine.

              http://blog.noslaves.com

              by BobOak on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 10:58:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  ? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Nightprowlkitty, RevenantX

                It's not on our website and I would NEVER use something like that which is so inaccurate.

                which site? - noslaves or programmers guild?

                because it's certainly from the PG site if the URL is any indication.

                as to my point...perhaps now it is to late and the genie is out of the bottle ...but if back in 99 or 2000 they had in fact followed Pfaffenberger's advice and stopped using H1b's, but instead brought in permanent residents we wouldn't have this problem now. But that position was never adopted by the H1b foes.

                These foreign-born tech workers would now be full members of society and most likely citizens ... instead they've gone home to be replaced by new temporary workers ...the vicious cycle of exploitation just continues.

                And just perhaps if his warning about allying with the anti-immigrant right was heeded back then, we wouldn't be having this guestworker debate right now between the two wings of the labor movement....it would have been a win-win for all concerned.

                •  bogus (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  uscitizenvoter

                  that's just completely bogus and inaccurate.  Back in that time no one opposed regular immigration...once again Duke, you should stick to your little racist xenophobe mantra and name calling "stories" and stay out of the history of professional labor issues or positions of professionals and various organizations.  You do not have a clue obviously on what is going on with global labor issues inside an inherently international labor area.

                  No, we are not PG.

                  http://blog.noslaves.com

                  by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 12:44:03 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, we are not PG.? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Nightprowlkitty

                    Really? Since when.

                    Ya'll quit the Guild?

                    But then why is Guild President, Kim Berry, commenting in this diary ...and you and the noslaves gang were all over his diary last week when the Guild and IEEE went to war with each other over IEEE's call for more green cards:

                    http://www.dailykos.com/...

                    •  did you ever think (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      uscitizenvoter

                      that other activists have RSS the same as your little gang of spammers going to attack, name call?

                      http://blog.noslaves.com

                      by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 11:22:02 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  please...... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Nightprowlkitty

                        co'om bob ...just a bunch of "activists" working independently?  

                        Why then do you speak of your group having over a thousand members when noslaves only has 72. ...Is it because the Guild has around 1500 members?

                        Sorry bob, but I see no reason why you deny your Guild membership. Yes you're in your own smaller group called noslaves ...but you're all part of the larger group; the Programmers Guild....and why you claim not to be, seems very strange. Is there a problem with the guild that makes you want to appear separate from them?

                        •  lies again (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          uscitizenvoter

                          For someone who "claims" to be "for workers" and "concerned" about guest worker Visas who spams my diaries on these very posts, who tried to BURY information on the economic realities for professional workers, who spams my stories on TRADE who spams my stories on HOUSE SCIENCE HEARINGS and who SPAMS MY STORIES promoting bills and amendments...
                          who cannot even read the constant, constant agenda and endorsement of bills we want.

                          and who now is trying to dismiss the very obvious connections of how we work with and tries to put together membership into groups we are NOT members of...

                          that is so anti-union and anti-worker behavior you belong on redstate frankly

                          http://blog.noslaves.com

                          by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 01:15:03 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

        •  who's immigrating? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BobOak

          If you recall, Jim Webb defeated Harris Miller, Horrible Harris the traitor.   Anyone with a clue understands why Sen. Webb defeated Miller.

          by "Pfaffenberger", are you referring to Prof. P at the U of VA?

          I agree largely with your recounting of Pfaffenberger's advice  except for the following:

          " .  .  . allowing foreigner IT professionals to immigrate to the U.S., but to receive a green card--the first step to full U.S. citizenship."

          This premise as stated below has been demolished.  Only intellectually dishonest, craven business interests make this assertion.  Ergo, there is no need for "foreigner IT professionals".

          "If there really is a need for foreign IT professionals, .  .  "  

          Oh yea, if you do find an "Einstein" he/she can come to the U.S. on an "O" visa.  Oh, I forgot, all us American citizens are stupid, fat and lazy; and all the Immigration Voice members are geniuses.  The congress will just have to listen to these non-U.S. citizens, and lift the cap on "O" visas after the big business wish of unlimited H-1bs/L-1s is reached at 200,000,000.  We want to make sure that the business elites and craven-interest politicians get their  desires fulfilled by allowing all the 500 + million geniuses from third world countries into the United States to manifest their genius to stupid, lazy American citizens.

          •  just filling in the gaps (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nightprowlkitty, RevenantX

            Super posted this article from the Programmers Guild website to make a point about the fact that those who have advocated that there is a shortage of tech workers have been doing so for some years and have dubious motivation.

            He just neglected to post the authors solution ... which I figured was just as an important a point to make.

            http://www.programmersguild.org/...

            it's all about being intellectually honest isn't it? ... if the article is good enough to quote because it makes your case for the problem...it certainly should be good enough when it proposes a solution to that very problem ...don't you think?

            Unless of course you've got newer writings by Pfaffenberger where he rescinds his position?  

            •  I'm filling in the 900 lb elephant gap (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BobOak

              I get a sense you're being a bit too "academic" with your "being intellectually honest isn't it?" statement.  No personal offense to you, but that's what's driving us nuts, is that many of us formerly middle class tech professionals are just barely hanging on to our middle class standard of living waiting for the proverbial shoe to drop; or virtually out on the street, trying to figure about a way to survive in this U.S. job market.  And we're encountering either detached cluelessness (Shumer's middle class anxiety remarks), or just plain craven, traitorous business interests.  We're talking survival for American citizens, here and now; and we're talking about good, middle-class paying jobs for American citizens.  

              How can anyone be so sanguine with a report like this?:
              http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

              http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/...

              " .  .  Kamal Nath, the Indian Commerce Minister, was very blunt when he said  recently that the H-1B visa "has become the outsourcing visa." He  concluded: "If at one point you had X amount of outsourcing and now you have a much higher quantum of outsourcing, you need that many more visas." .  .  .

              No offense to immigrants (hopeful or otherwise) to the U.S., but we're going to put a stop to this BULLSHIT, once and for all.   We're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore!  And we're going to hold politicians accountable who sell out the lives and fortunes of their fellow American citizens.  (In case no one got that, it's from the last sentence from the Declaration of Independence.)

              I read this commentary from 1999.

              http://www.programmersguild.org/...

              At the time it was written, one might almost understand the last statements.  But there is now overwhelming proof of the damage these visa worker programs have incurred on U.S. citizens working in the tech sector, including myself.

              "Programmers everywhere should demand good working conditions for all workers in the profession--including foreign workers. If there really is a need for foreign IT professionals, let's make sure they're treated the way programmers everywhere ought to be treated. That means, at the minimum, bringing these workers in as legal immigrants with all the rights and privileges enjoyed by a future citizen of the United States."

              I cannot agree with bringing in more immigrants to work in the tech field, until we deal with underemployed, or entirely displaced, science and engineering, educated American citizens.

              •   correction (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BobOak

                Elephants typically weigh at least two to three tons (at least).

              •  partly disagree... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Duke1676

                Granted there is widespread abuse of the H1-B program, especially in the IT industry, scrapping the program altogether is not the solution. In some areas, esp in STEM R&D there is a specific need for trained individuals (including students (American or otherwise) with advanced degrees).

                I cannot agree with bringing in more immigrants to work in the tech field, until we deal with underemployed, or entirely displaced, science and engineering, educated American citizens.

                Are you advocating replacing foreigners with PhDs with American undergrads? It simply doesn't work that way.

                •  reforms (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dkmich, uscitizenvoter, RevenantX

                  Some groups do say plain scrap it and understandably so since seemingly the motivation was pure labor arbitrage...but we do not.  We want real reforms, a true, enforced test where a corporation truly considered and could not find the specialty skills and maybe we should add TRAIN the specialty skills within 3 months or so on (many specialty skills can be learned in a matter of a couple of weeks with a high end engineer).  Norm Matloff has analyzed the law at nausuem frankly and talks in depth about wage determinations needing reform.  But the AILA and corporate lobbyists swarm the hill and at every turn put in their real insourcing (labor arbitrage) agenda into the law or interpretation of it by the DOL as well...Frankly it's God awful for as you can see on this thread (which disgusts me obviously from my own tone) they obfuscation between labor arbitrage and "immigrants" or international talent and it's on purpose so one cannot understand the law to enable international talent yet stop domestic labor market displacement, wage repression, wage, sex discrimination and all of the worker abuses we know and love so well today.

                  http://blog.noslaves.com

                  by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 12:54:52 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  oh this is rich (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Nightprowlkitty

                    We want real reforms ....they obfuscation between labor arbitrage and "immigrants" or international talent and it's on purpose so one cannot understand the law to enable international talent yet stop domestic labor market displacement

                    To bad for you there is an actual record of the things you have said .. so when you try to sugar-coat your position to try to look reasonable  ... we can then  post them up to show that you in no way support international  talent in any way shape or form.

                    "you turned around and said we need more immigrants...this is simply not the case .  .... There is zero evidence that we need more immigration in any single labor area in the United States."

                    http://www.dailykos.com/...

                     

                    •  there is no conflict (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      uscitizenvoter

                      and as I've said Duke, stick to your "everything is a racist xenophobe" distortions, I'm plain not interested with your insane open border bizarre spamming agenda.

                      http://blog.noslaves.com

                      by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 11:14:03 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

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