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View Diary: A Glimmer of Hope; fees increase on H-1B guest worker Visas (203 comments)

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  •  Common gound? Get out of here! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Duke1676, Nightprowlkitty

    This is ridiculous... it is the anti-immigrant folks here who are the extremists.

    They are against a path to citizenship. The are against children of immigrants going to school. The are against the H1-B visa (this is legal immigration). They are against Green Cards. They are against the 14th amendement.

    This is not "pro-American worker". This is knee-jerk anti-immigrant-- and they are against both legal and "illegal" immigrantion.

    There is a fine middle ground... but the anti-immigrant people want nothing to do with it.

    I have been pointing out that giving green cards to workers means that they can't be exploited... whereas giving temporary visas (i.e. H1-Bs) is the policy that is truly bad for us American workers.

    Giving rights to people coming here to work is not only a moderate policy... it makes sense for American workers. You can't exploit people who have rights... and citizens don't work for sweatshops.

    Show me a single person on the anti-immigrant side who can compromise... and they will find man willing people on the compassionate immigration reform side to work with.

    •  You are being irrational and hysterical.. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BobOak, Hens Teeth, uscitizenvoter

      I have never seen any indication of bob being anti-immigrant.  Show me.

      No justice, no peace.

      by dkmich on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 04:45:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  dk ... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dkmich, Duke1676

        ... check not only bob oak's comments but his ratings.  You are wrong about this.

        Especially check both his comments and ratings in Duke's and kyledeb's diaries.

        •  Comments and ratings where and from who? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BobOak, uscitizenvoter

          If its this group, no wonder.  Show me where he says he is opposed to all immigration.  If you have a link, I would love to see it.  Besides, I'm not actually supporting him as much as I'm supporting his efforts to stop out and insourcing.  Look, I live in Michigan.  Do you have any clue what NAFTA has done to MI?  Do you know how sick I get of having so called "progressives" on this blog attack with glee American autos, the UAW, you name it.  The ignorance they spew teems. There are tons of poor Americans.  They are losing their jobs, their homes, have no health care, and are poor, incarcerated, and losing their children to foster care. Because they happen to be American citizens, they are what?  Disposable and nowhere as important as a Hispanic, immigrant, person of brown color, catholic, what?  Even if Bob Oak is a racist, it doesn't make his cause racist.  If Bob Oak is a racist, please show me.

          No justice, no peace.

          by dkmich on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 04:07:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  exactly (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            uscitizenvoter

            and one really needs to wonder why, the little TR gang shows up on insourcing, outsourcing, labor, trade diaries, even a diary about discrimination and lack of equal opportunity for women in STEM!  There they were, spamming the damn diary...

            So, one must wonder why the little TR gang shows up in the first place since the diaries or us are not about their supposed "issue" at all.  

            http://blog.noslaves.com

            by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:31:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Where have people called (0+ / 0-)

            boboak racist? We call him anti immigrant. If someone is against all laws that would benefit immigrants and in favor of all laws that would take rights and privileges from immigrants, isn't that being anti immigrant?
            If he is really not anti immigrant, as he claims, maybe he could convince us of that. What do we do about the 12 million plus undocumented that are here? Which pro immigration laws are good? What is a progressive solution?
            Being anti H visas is not necessarily anti immigrant. But being against all laws that could benefit immigrants or could help to legalize immigrants is, in my opinion, anti immigrant.
            There are plenty of anti immigrants out there. I think they hurt America. I just can't see how someone can be a progressive, tolerant, caring human being and be anti immigrant.

      •  Bob opposes ALL immigration (1+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Nightprowlkitty
        Hidden by:
        BobOak

        and has said so numerous times:

        "plus you turned around and said we need more immigrants...this is simply not the case from the many displaced, highly qualified American workers and statistics.  .... There is zero evidence that we need more immigration in any single labor area in the United States."

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        •  This statement does not oppose immigration (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BobOak, uscitizenvoter

          There is zero evidence that we need more immigration in any single labor area in the United States.

          This statement says that the economic case has not been made for it -- there is a great deal of difference.

          I have said much the same thing when I stated that nobody has made an economic case for importing more low-wage low-skilled workers into this country.

          This statement says nothing about my stance on immigration in general.

          <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

          by superscalar on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 10:36:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  An analog to Robert's statement (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BobOak, uscitizenvoter

            "I don't need to eat another piece of pie" a statement which says nothing about whether I actually like pie (the preponderance of the evidence being that I indeed do like pie), and would actually maybe want another piece of pie.

            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

            by superscalar on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 10:41:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh good lord. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Duke1676

              How about the fact he recommended this comment, quoting one of the more virulent right-wing sources, NumbersUSA, and against the Dream Act?

              I could come up with a lot more examples.  Your excuse of him is weak, to put it mildly.

              bob oak continues to loudly claim he is a progressive.  He is not.  He supports Dobbsian rhetoric and right wing talking points.  That is not an opinion.  It's right there in his comments and in the comments he recommends.

              The fact that he finds it necessary to throw out so many TRs in his own diary is also telling, insofar as being a member of the Daily Kos community.  It is a sign of weakness -- and he does it continually.

              •  I wrote (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BobOak, uscitizenvoter

                There is zero evidence that we need more immigration in any single labor area in the United States.

                This statement, on its own, does not oppose immigration.

                The fact that he finds it necessary to throw out so many TRs in his own diary

                And I have asked that he not troll rate comments -- on more than one occasion.

                Your excuse of him is weak, to put it mildly.

                I don't defend anyone but myself, I don't speak for anyone but myself, and I only very rarely 'make excuses' for myself, but I would have thought that people would have figured that out by now.

                And I will choose to stand by my comment.

                <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                by superscalar on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 12:26:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Trouble is ... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Duke1676

                  ...... bob oak's statements do not stand on their own, and I have given some more context to them.  Given that, your decision to "stand by" your comment makes no sense at all.

                  I didn't say you defended him, I said your comment was excusing his words, and it was.  Fact is, you have no idea what he meant when he said those words, and in your comment you were implying you did by comparing it to something you have said in the past.  So yes, you were excusing his words.

                  Given that, I found it reasonable to provide even more context to support the fact that bob oak is by no means a Progressive Democrat.

                  •  slanderous lie (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    uscitizenvoter

                    You cannot even repeat, when all you have to do is a cut and paste from this very diary, what my position statement are!

                    You are a slanderous, spammer who is oblivious to the issues at hand!

                    http://blog.noslaves.com

                    by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 01:45:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well ... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Duke1676

                      ... seeing as you are out of donuts, I hope this spew made you feel better.

                      I'm beginning to worry about you, bob.

                      Take care.

                      •  what does this mean? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        uscitizenvoter

                        What is phantom GDP and how is it inadvertently calculated into the US GDP?

                        How does it relate to global labor issues?

                        Why are Americans not seeing the benefits in increased productivity?  What is different about the productivity equation in today's global market that makes the increased value not correlate to an increased standard of living in the domestic labor market it is correlated with?  

                        http://blog.noslaves.com

                        by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 02:22:18 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Bob ... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Duke1676

                          ... I have a few questions to ask you.

                          Why are you against the Dream Act?

                          Do you think the enforcement now taking place by the ICE is fair and humane?  Do you think it reflects American values?

                          Why don't you answer the questions Duke asks instead of shooting back with insults and slurs.  He doesn't spam.  He knows his subject.  He doesn't troll rate.

                          We all have questions, don't we?

                          But we are on a blog that has specific rules, one of which heartily discourages repeating and approving of right wing talking points.  So my last question is -- why do you uprate comments that use those kinds of RW talking points and then take such offense when folks call you on it?

                          •  they are not right wing talking points (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            uscitizenvoter

                            as noted by the many Netroots endorsed candidates and the further group in '08.  That's the problem, the failure to recognize this is not a mainstream Democratic position and most assuredly does not define a Democratic party.

                            But, that's simply incorrect and try as you might, immigration position does NOT define a Democrat and also does not define a Progressive.

                            I don't answer your questions because once again they are traps...you attempt to paint anyone with any position beyond "no position" or "no immigration policy at all" as being not a Democrat and that is outrageous, false and alienating to a huge percentage of Democrats...especially those who worked on campaigns in '06.

                            http://blog.noslaves.com

                            by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:24:57 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Bob, (0+ / 0-)

                      Please.  NPK and Duke are not like that.  I know you've bumped heads, but maybe it is time to regroup.  I greatly appreciate what you are trying to do, and I know you put a lot of time and energy into it.  I think a lot of people do support you, but you need to give them their differences even if they don't give you yours, iyo.  I don't mean to preach at you.  I just really appreciate the work you do on this, and I hate to see someone that I believe to be well intentioned get so upset. You can only do what you can do. The rest is out of your hands.    

                      No justice, no peace.

                      by dkmich on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 08:47:47 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  yes they are (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        uscitizenvoter

                        look at the posts, and also why are they even here on this diary about a scholarship program, or any of my diaries if all they care about is illegal immigration?  I never even write about illegal immigration yet they spam my diaries, all of them.

                        http://blog.noslaves.com

                        by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 12:51:44 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  lie as usual Duke n/t (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          uscitizenvoter

          http://blog.noslaves.com

          by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 11:17:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  it's not your comment? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nightprowlkitty

            check the link ...it's there in orange and white. Sorry Bob, but words actually do have meaning ...and you can't just troll-rate that away. You said it ..and all the protestations in the world can't change that fact.

            •  you are said (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              uscitizenvoter

              I tr comments most worthy and you are most assuredly posting massive lies and distortions, plus spamming the story (which obviously no one bothered to read or even stay on topic about).  

              No, you have NO CLUE on our real positions which are repeatedly like a mantra in every diary and in the top comments.  It's clear what bills we endorse and push and there are right there and you continue to show your true colors of yet another member of an insane, spam fest, "fuckedcompany.com" type of liar who no more cares about labor issues than Mitt Romney.

              http://blog.noslaves.com

              by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 01:03:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  since your such a pro-labor guy (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Nightprowlkitty

                I'll ask you again...as I have asked on numerous occasions:

                Do you support the official AFL-CIO position on Immigration reform as expressed by President John Sweeney and the rest of the leadership?

                In 1997, the U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform validated our belief that a "properly regulated system of permanent admissions serves the national interest" and warned that another temporary-worker program would be a "grievous mistake." This means that everyone who is admitted to work must immediately be on a track toward permanent residency or citizenship.

                La Times, 4-10-07, editorial by John Sweeney, Pres. AFL-CIO

                March 01, 2006 in San Diego, CA

                Uniform enforcement of workplace standards must be a priority.

                (The) exploitation of workers will continue as long, as it makes economic sense to do so, to the detriment of U.S.-born and foreign-born workers alike.  Unfortunately, the lax enforcement of labor and employment laws has given too many unscrupulous employers the economic incentive to recruit undocumented workers...

                The only meaningful way to remove that perverse economic incentive and to equalize the competitive playing field is to ensure that all those who gain the benefit of a worker’s labor, ... abide by all labor and employment laws.  That means that the immigration reform law must provide real and enforceable remedies for labor and employment law violations that are available to all workers, regardless of their immigration status...

                Reforms must provide a path to permanent residency for the currently undocumented workers who have paid taxes and made positive contributions to their communities.

                Legalization is an important worker protection.  History shows that legalizing this population benefits all workers. ...  Without a legalization program, the economic incentive to hire and exploit the undocumented will remain, to the detriment of U.S. workers who labor in the same industries as the undocumented, because all workers will see their working conditions plummet.

                We must reverse the trend of allowing employers to turn permanent, full-time year-round jobs into temporary jobs through attempts to broaden the size and scope of guestworker programs.

                ...Guestworker programs are bad public policy and operate to the detriment of workers, in the both the public and private sector, and of working families in the U.S.  The abuses suffered by workers in the first such program, the post World-War II Bracero program, are well documented.  The negative effects of the modern versions of the "guestworker" construct—such as the H1-B and H2-B programs—are all too evident today.  Workers around the country are witnessing the transformation of formerly well-paying, permanent jobs into temporary jobs with little or no benefits, which employers are staffing with vulnerable foreign workers who have no real enforceable rights through the guestworker programs.  These modern programs have had a major and substantial detrimental effect on important sectors of our economy.

                In our view, there is no good reason why any immigrant who comes to this country prepared to work, to pay taxes, and to abide by our laws and rules should be denied what has been offered to immigrants throughout our country’s history, a path to legal citizenship.  To embrace instead the creation of a permanent two-tier workforce, with non-U.S. workers relegated to second-class "guestworker" status, would be repugnant to our traditions and our ideals and disastrous for the living standards of working families.

                Long-Term Labor Shortages Should be Filled With Workers with Full Rights

                We recognize that our economy may face real labor shortages in the coming years, as the baby boomer generation retires.  Instead of relying on a construct that guarantees the deterioration of working conditions in the U.S., we should focus on a meaningful solution that guarantees full workplace rights for all workers, both foreign-born and native, and also permits employers to hire foreign workers to fill proven labor shortages.  The solution is simple: Congress should revise the permanent employment-based visas system and devote more resources to removing processing delays.  

                Employment-based admissions for permanent visas (commonly known as "green cards") are subject to labor certification provisions...(and Congress has arbitrarily set the number of these visas at 140,000 annually.  That approach should be changed so that the number of visas available responds to actual, demonstrated labor shortages, which will satisfy employers’ needs for workers, and will prevent the creation of a secondary class of workers and residents, because the new foreign workers will have full employment rights and the promise of a permanent future in our democracy. # Reform of immigration laws must consider the root causes of migration, and must take into account the global economic policies, as well as U.S. foreign policy that are pushing workers to migrate

                Without rising living standards abroad for workers and the poor, the pressure for illegal immigration will continue.  U.S. foreign policy, as well as trade and globalization policies, must be grounded upon a coherent national economic strategy, as described in An Economic Agenda for Working Families, adopted at the AFL-CIO’s 2005 Convention.

                Responsible Reform of Immigration Laws Must Protect Working Conditions for all Workers in the U.S. AFL-CIO

                A simple yes or no will do...but somehow I don't think you'll answers as you have failed to do so many times in the past.

                •  that's amusing (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  uscitizenvoter

                  because you and your open border pals are most assuredly not endorsed by the AFL-CIO, nor representing that position.  

                  http://blog.noslaves.com

                  by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 01:57:34 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  but again you avoid the question (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Nightprowlkitty

                    I can say unequivocally that I back the AFL-CIO position 100%...and have written numerous diaries in support of those positions....can you say the same. Do you support these quoted positions or not..it's a simple question.

                    1. Everyone who is admitted to work must immediately be on a track toward permanent residency or citizenship
                    1. provide real and enforceable remedies for labor and employment law violations that are available to all workers, regardless of their immigration status
                    1. provide a path to permanent residency for the currently undocumented workers who have paid taxes and made positive contributions to their communities
                    1. there is no good reason why any immigrant who comes to this country prepared to work, to pay taxes, and to abide by our laws and rules should be denied what has been offered to immigrants throughout our country’s history, a path to legal citizenship.
                    1. Congress should revise the permanent employment-based visas system and devote more resources to removing processing delays.
                    1. (Policy should be) changed so that the number of visas available responds to actual, demonstrated labor shortages, which will satisfy employers’ needs for workers, and will prevent the creation of a secondary class of workers and residents, because the new foreign workers will have full employment rights and the promise of a permanent future in our democracy.
                    1. U.S. foreign policy, as well as trade and globalization policies, must be grounded upon a coherent national economic strategy
                    •  those are not AFL-CIO positions (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      uscitizenvoter

                      and I know for certain you just use AFL-CIO positions for your open border agenda for they strongly talk about stopping the influx as well as interior enforcement, which you blast at every chance you can get....

                      you're just an open border spammer who posts extremely, very poorly done propaganda papers not based in real labor economics for some nebulous position not based in global labor markets.  
                      and my favorite activity of yours is your constant "so and so is a racist xenophobe" whatever long, long, verbiage that belongs straight into the great digital garbage can.  Oops, lest me not forget the attacks on real labor positions such as the original intent of this diary.  but I guess you don't really care about that one...the fact that the AFL-CIO and it's various unions affiliated with professional workers endorsed this amendment.  

                      I have no idea what your trip is but it sure isn't based in any real economic theory or even the real AFL-CIO positions.  

                      http://blog.noslaves.com

                      by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 02:19:30 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  follow the links bob (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Nightprowlkitty

                        those are exact quotes from both Sweeney's op-ed and the 2006 San Diego statement.

                        As much as you don't like it, these are the official positions of the AFL-CIO.

                        And it's also obvious that your absolute inability to accept them as such proves you don't support them.

                        So you can stop the "I'm a labor guy..and your not" facade you chuck around here all the time.

                        I know for a fact (because I've spoken with them) that you have on numerous occasions troll rated and attacked representative of the AFL-CIO who post here....because they hold  different positions than you when it comes to legalization of the undocumented, opposition to the immigration raids, and changing the green card quotas to better reflect real needs.

                        You can have all the pissing matches you want, and claim you know better what the "true" positions of organized labor are...but the facts are against you.

                        •  oh clueless misinformation spammer (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          uscitizenvoter

                          Here it is in reprint, NO, they do NOT endorse green card giveaways via Academia, which is the F-4 proposal.

                          You have no clue Duke, spammer of AFL-CIO positions, insult troll and spammer extrodinaire trying to silence labor actvists....yup, oh Duke, ye of opposition position that ye try to claim...you have none.  You are so anti-worker who simply name calls to hide the fact...very nice propaganda techniques...

                          So, once again...

                          and I'm not even listing the other departments of the AFL-CIO yet.  Oops, but you don't care about reality as I've noted repeatedly, just some bizarre spammer trip to I guess take up your day?  Maybe you should consider finding a job.

                          AFL-CIO , Department of Professional Employees

                          But the "Great American Jobs Giveaway" doesn’t begin and end with these H-1B provisions. Through changes in the student visa program, our own sons and daughters will be out of luck when in comes to coveted training and job prospects.

                          Student visas were originally intended to allow foreign students to come to the U.S for one purpose—education. Changes proposed would put tens of thousands of foreign students in direct competition with our own undergraduate and graduate students for full and part time job opportunities. For our own, many U.S. students need those jobs to pay their way through school, to help pay off thousands of dollars in education loans and in many situations to gain the skills and experience necessary for a successful career. The challenges confronting them should not be made more onerous because of changes in the student visa program.

                          The new F-4 visa for those pursuing an advanced degree in math, engineering, technology and physical sciences coupled with the impact of H-1B will in fact work in tandem to discourage American students from pursuing an education in these so-called shortage disciplines. Simply stated, their job opportunities will be limited both before and after graduation and their wage prospects diminished by foreign workers who, studies have shown, are paid far less than the prevailing rate. The end result will be ironically more—not fewer—labor shortages in key occupations.

                          http://blog.noslaves.com

                          by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 02:59:51 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  yes bob, we all oppose increased guestworker visa (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Nightprowlkitty

                            Me, You, the AFL-CIO... many many more in the migrants-rights movement. And that of course was the main point of the article you linked to.

                            BUT that still doesn't answer the question..do you support the positions of the AFL-CIO regarding legalization of the undocumented, enforcement of workplace regulations as opposed to immigration raids, providing an easier path to LPR and citizenship for all immigrants etc....all those things listed above.

                            why can't you answer that simple question.

                          •  I have many times (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            uscitizenvoter

                            Duke, you've got to know I think you're a joke.  You have no credibility with me, I consider you a fly, a buzz saw, an absolute waste of time and most importantly very very anti-progressive and anti-labor.

                            You spam the very positions that are desired by the few Progressives we have in congress...you name call the very people trying to help these very Progressives in congress....you are a blight on the cause.

                            you spam well known AFL-CIO positions, you spam policies that are being lobbied for by labor on the hill...very hard fought little progress that can be made...well, I can guarantee you will be there, distorting the facts, posting ad hominem attacks and subverting this very progress.

                            It's so bad I believe you are a corporate spam troll for your attempts to subvert and sabotage well know agendas of the Progressive caucus in congress...such as this very simple amendment which this story is about... which will probably be attacked by corporate lobbyists.

                            and here you are with your ad hominem attacks, misquotes and lies....making sure corporate lobbyists can complete their agenda to kill a very simple funding mechanism for super smart US kids.  

                            http://blog.noslaves.com

                            by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 03:19:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            uscitizenvoter

                            you don't even know what the F-4 is about do you.

                            You just, well, why should I be surprised....of course you don't.  no, that is not the AFL-CIO position as I just directly quoted from just one letter out of dozens, dozens from the various arms of that union.  

                            But, then of course you really don't care about the AFL-CIO since you try to distort it to mean your open border whatever insanity or maybe it's just so you can accuse people of being a racist xenophobe...seemingly your favorite daily activity.  

                            Go write another Lou Dobbs diary Duke, I'm sure you'll make great progress in advancing a labor agenda...it really helps, really does...or hell, call a member of congress a racist xenophobe while you're at it...
                            have fun, ad photos even.

                            http://blog.noslaves.com

                            by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 03:24:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  congratulations you just reached 150 comments (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Nightprowlkitty

                            in one of your diaries...you usually don't get out of the teens ....but then again without the flamewars that's where this one would be also. Good thing for you you're so well known and well loved here..at least you can attract some attention to your point of view ...even if the vast majority come only to call you out.

                          •  Yeah ... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Duke1676

                            ... but now "corporate spam troll" ... that's a new one!

                            lol

                          •  sure you're a corporate spam troll (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            uscitizenvoter

                            but as I noted you cannot answer one position from the Progressive caucus, not a one...
                            and of course spam diaries that are in essence obvious internal materials from that very congressional caucus....

                            but of course since you pay no attention to the actual diaries, policy positions, press releases or testimony from hearings...

                            well, maybe you do notice that fact....or more maybe you do and why resort to ad hominem attack....

                            Anyway, I'm sorry you hate progressives but it's a huge contingency within the Democratic party and we're here to get our policy positions through whether you like it or not.

                            http://blog.noslaves.com

                            by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 04:31:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well Bob ... (0+ / 0-)

                            ... it's been a lovely chat.  Glad we were able to share ideas.

                            Later, gator.

                          •  you've never chatted (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            uscitizenvoter

                            nope, cannot answer a single point of the issues, fail to note what I write about and spam my very important Progressive issues with rude insulting comments.

                            http://blog.noslaves.com

                            by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 08:53:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well I did just then! (0+ / 0-)

                            (chatted, that is).  See the comment you just responded to!

                            Geez.

                          •  no (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            uscitizenvoter

                            you have done drive-bys, insults, name calling and TRed people who have an opinion you deem you do not like without understanding the complexities of these various proposals or their concerns.  You uprated a sockpuppet from India where spamming Progressive successes on labor issues has been posted on their blog as an action item.  (NASSCOM considers this a trade issue).

                            You have spammed a diary about a Progressive caucus success with a call to action to make it survive the conferees and Bush's veto corporate agenda.  You cannot answer a single question that has everything to do with labor economics and also the topic of immigration, of which I have never written a story on and which this diary is not about...yet addressed it anyway.  You have TRed known labor activists who took a stab at blogging and alienated them.  You have alienated Populist Democrats who are actually involved in their local Democrat party.  

                            http://blog.noslaves.com

                            by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 09:34:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh Bob. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mariachi mama

                            Disagreeing with you is not spamming.  Nor am I a ... what was the term you used ... oh yeah, "corporate spam troll."  Nor have I given out one troll rating in this diary -- those have been all yours.  I think you are confused.

                            Nighty night.

                          •  your pattern of abuse (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            uscitizenvoter

                            is well documented right in your own comments if you want to call just slanderous abuses comments.

                            Absolutely a corporate spam troll is someone who spams...as you do...and stalks...as you do...and name calls...as you do....on positions that are actually Progressive positions, such as this particular amendment....to bury support for that very agenda...

                            that is precisely what you are doing.

                            Posting in diaries you don't even read, such as this one...or more have no ability to understand is probably more like it.

                            What is the real underlying agenda of corporate written trade agreements according to Klein's book, "the shock doctrine"?

                            You don't have a clue do you, no, I think not.

                            http://blog.noslaves.com

                            by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 12:45:25 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This isn't going to work for you. (0+ / 0-)

                            I will put my comment and ratings history against yours any day of the week, Bob.  Folks can easily look up both and find you are the one doing the troll rating and making the insulting comments.  You are also accusing folks of being trolls and stalkers with no proof whatsoever (in distinct contrast to those of us who have posted links of your own ill-advised comments defending Lou Dobbs and trashing other posters as well as uprating troll comments).  I'm more than happy for folks to find out this information for themselves.

                            Yes, I am interested in finding Progressive solutions to the challenges of immigration law, policy and enforcement.  I am willing to learn from anyone on this issue, but I am adamantly opposed to discussing any one aspect of it through the Lou Dobbs, FAIR, etc., lense, because each aspect impacts upon the other.

                            As long as you are willing to buy into the Dobbsian right-wing frame, it doesn't matter in which particular area you claim expertise, Bob.  I will oppose that frame and that view.

                            That is not stalking.  What is out of bounds for this site is supporting right wing talking points, and Lou Dobbs and his ilk fit perfectly into that category.

                            You are the one who is breaking the rules of this site -- making false accusations towards those who disagree with you, inappropriate troll rating, and uprating comments that are racist, xenophobic and right wing.  If you continue to do so, you will be the one to find yourself in trouble at this site, no one else.

                          •  calling you out Duke (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            uscitizenvoter

                            and that's what you hate.  

                            I see your little gang, one who has two sockpuppet ids and then a whole lot of other people who support Senator Sanders and Grassley on this amendment.

                            That must be why you are so filled with hate and spam...the Progressives are making progress in spite of your best efforts to repress it.

                            http://blog.noslaves.com

                            by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 04:28:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Quit fighting and throwing donuts all over. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            BobOak

                            Do you think that helps your/the cause?  I know you catch hell every time you post on this subject, but you need to stop fighting with them here.  I think you and duke should have a conversation.  I can't believe that as important as jobs are, there can't be a civil dialog that supports labor and immigration.  We need both.

                            No justice, no peace.

                            by dkmich on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 07:42:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  explanation (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            dkmich, uscitizenvoter

                            Duke has spammed diaries of mine on trade, education, R&D government initiatives....not exactly "immigration" topics and most important Progressive topics.  He and this gang hit this one already and it was after it rolled off the boards which tells you something.  No, I tried that, I even helped him analyze the comprehensive immigration bill, but unfortunately he is more interested in name calling, posting misinformation and most importantly uprating our little sockpuppets and those who insult.  He also has spammed my other diaries, this is on trade with China, National Science Academies R&D agenda and hearing, you name it.  

                            He tries to sound diplomatic but trust me, he'll uprate obvious sockpuppets and post misinformation and most importantly encourage those who name call and TR rate very good progressive Democrats, which they do constantly.

                            As far as the donuts, those are the ones who have TRed people off the boards and encourage others to gang up on them and TR them off the boards.  So, when they post a TR worthy thing, I use it just to remove their TU status so they cannot abuse it and TR people speaking their opinions.

                            http://blog.noslaves.com

                            by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 09:00:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm sorry. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            BobOak, uscitizenvoter

                            I tried to make peace.  

                            No justice, no peace.

                            by dkmich on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 09:05:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yeah (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            uscitizenvoter

                            but unfortunately they clearly have an "agenda" and it sure isn't about some sort of policy that is Progressive.  I mean look at this one, the leader of the Progressive caucus...that's what the text is, it's rewritten press releases from congressional offices and from labor organizations and then see what the little gang says. They uprated a guy who tried to imply Senator Bernie Sanders, leader of the House Progressive caucus, founder of it, still running it as a Senator...someone who is so Progressive he's a socialist, he isn't even a Democrat..and they spam that and try to imply he's "racist" over a scholarship, a little fee increase, some money for super smart kids.  Good God.

                            They have a little agenda, which at this point all I can really figure out is to name call. Because I always have TU, I step in and stop when they are busy ganging up on someone via donuts who happens to fall into their little LaBrea Tar Pit trap on one of their "everyone is a racist xenophobe who disagrees with x" on some nebulously defined "no immigration policy at all" "diaries".    

                            I go back on forth on it, but they managed to TR off the site two labor activities already so that's when I decided to use my TU to try to stop their donut making ability for a moment to some positive effect...people still complain about them but so far no one has been autobanned that I'm aware of.  Kos I know did one purge of these "troll hunters" awhile ago, but obviously not enough.

                            http://blog.noslaves.com

                            by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 09:23:18 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm so sick if your full of shit troll stories (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Nightprowlkitty, mariachi mama

                            Like I've said before I'll put up my ratings record:
                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            against yours:
                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            anytime.

                            In three years I've given out less then 5 troll ratings...you give that out every day.

                            The reason you've got so many problems in your diaries, and so many people coming in to give you a hard time is due to your constant troll rating in other peoples diaries. You've made a ton of enemies with your one-man quest to attack anyone you disagree with.

                            As to your idiotic claim about Kos purging "troll hunters"... that shit might fly with newbies who weren't here at the time... but everyone who was here at the time knows it had nothing whatsoever to do with you or those you troll rate constantly....it's pure bullshit...like all your other claims.

                            The records speak for themselves, and everyone can see them.

                            You engage in ratings abuse all the time, and have been warned about it by frontpagers ..so stop all the "inocent victim" bullshit. If you behaved like a normal person and just let people hold their own opinions without constantly attacking them, you wouldn't have the problems that you do.

                      •  btw (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Nightprowlkitty

                        I actually do back the amendment ...and haven't voiced a single word of opposition to it.

                        It's you and your agenda that I don't support.

                        It's your opposition to the DREAM act when it has absolutely nothing to do with labor issues, it's your opposition to a path to legalization for the undocumented when even the AFL-CIO support it, it's your support for every piece of punitive Republican immigration legislation coming from both the House and Senate, it's your support for the workplace raids that every union has spoken out against, It's your quoting of dubious sources like CIS and FAIR. Throughout the years you have made your positions quite well known, and those who have been here any length of time know them ...and most have nothing to do with "labor issues" although you like to claim such.

                        It's you bob, and your real positions I oppose. ...and that is what I have voiced in this diary...as have many others.

                        and that's to bad, because this really is a decent amendment..but your presenting it here has poisoned the well for many I'm sure

                        •  uh huh (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          uscitizenvoter

                          You're one spamming blogger who write volumes of nonsense which generates a good...5 comments...and so in frustration you attack and spam very good diarists but only when you can get away with it.

                          like this one, after it rolled off the pages.  and you can never get too far when one of mine hits recommended..as you could not with Sirota although I saw you tried, realized it wouldn't work on that one and thus gave up......I see the pattern quite clearly and I'm so sorry you cannot get the Progressive community to adopt your insane policy positions, well, maybe not so sorry.

                          http://blog.noslaves.com

                          by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 03:06:02 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  I never once (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          uscitizenvoter

                          posted any comment, anything about any position w.r.t. the Dream act.  I stopped you and your gang from trying to TR and name call insult those Dems who were opposed to it.  But as usual, domination by any means is your game so because I won't let you chase away very good Dems who have different positions that whatever the hell yours is, you try to claim I make statements that I in fact never have.

                          BTW, what does w.r.t stand for?  I'm sure you do not know since you cannot consider even a basic labor economics study critically.

                          http://blog.noslaves.com

                          by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 12:55:31 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  you poisoned it (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          uscitizenvoter

                          as your obvious intent..just as every time a report comes out in favor of US professional workers...you try to repress it with your "racist xenophobe" rants...
                          and why you and your gang spams diaries....to attempt to repress facts and information.

                          This is why you are a corporate troll in disguise.

                          http://blog.noslaves.com

                          by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:34:15 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  by proxy (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          uscitizenvoter

                          you uprate and encourage the others to TR.  you post comments trying to enforce their name calling, TR gang behavior.  Link to those activities and get honest.

                          http://blog.noslaves.com

                          by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:24:36 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

        •  I read your link and NPK link. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          uscitizenvoter

          I can see why you would think what you do.  Let me ask this question.  If you were being circled and attacked, repeatedly, for something you thought was a good and noble cause, might you rush your typing, thought, and get a little defensive?  I think protecting American jobs and the American middle class is protecting the American dream, which is why all of us immigrants came here in the first place.  What good is having tons of immigrants, legal or otherwise, if our standard of living begins to rival that of Mexico or Honduras?  Maybe if you tried to work with Bob, you would find the common ground.  I find it hard to believe that anybody who cares about people can't find a way to support labor and immigration.  They are both as American as apple pie.  

          No justice, no peace.

          by dkmich on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 04:20:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Maybe if you tried to work with Bob, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nightprowlkitty

            actually I did

            During the last round of immigration reform legislation ...the horrible "Grand Compromise" bill last spring...Bob and I worked together a lot. Like 100's of hours. We shared info, did analysis of the legislation,  weeded through the almost 700 pages of bullshit that made up that bill...and came away totally agreeing the bill was garbage...we then worked together in opposition to it's passage.

            Then once the bill failed ...bob was right back to his same old self...right back to attacks..why? because I mentioned Lou Dobbs as part of the anti-immigrant media along with O'Riely, Rush etc....in this diary:

            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            Since then he has continued his one-man-war of troll-rating and flaming anything that remotely resembles a progressive immigration position.

            go check out the diary and the comments  ...it explains a lot.

            •  Thank you. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Duke1676, Nightprowlkitty

              I agree his troll rating is out of control.  You and I do not see eye to eye, but I find you very easy to talk to about the subject. Bob does need to calm down.  This is a very important issue to a Michigander, and I hate to see it turn into pie fights.  I will go check out the diary you linked.

              No justice, no peace.

              by dkmich on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 07:46:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  dkmich (3+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Duke1676, trashablanca, Nightprowlkitty
                Hidden by:
                BobOak

                I hate to do this on Bob's diary, but he is totally out of control with the TRs, accusations and recommending racist posts, by known trolls. What is really sad about this, is that the cause he supports is valid and he has some good things to say. I used to rec his diaries and comments and thought he made a lot of good points, but he drives people away through his behaviour.

                Bob, if you read this, please take a step back and consider how you present yourself. You are driving potential allies away.

                Here is an example of uprating by bob

                i wouldn't bother with either one of you (1+ / 4-)
                Recommended by:BobOak
                Trollrated by:Eternal Hope, doinaheckuvanutjob, Dianna, Brahman Colorado

                by sooner on Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 12:10:10 AM MDT

                [ Parent ]

                Here is the whole thread, to put in context.

                http://www.dailykos.com/...

                There are many more examples I could post.

              •  he's lying (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                uscitizenvoter

                yes not only did he try to repress a Dobbs report on professional Visas as well as insult Sirota who was interviewed on trade, but more importantly he uprates obvious haters who name call and joins in.  And his position is open border basically or no immigration policy whatsoever.

                http://blog.noslaves.com

                by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 12:58:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Two things in your diary that hit home. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Duke1676, BobOak, Nightprowlkitty

              Nothing is mentioned addressing the neo-liberal free-trade policies that have been the root cause of much of the inter-hemispheric migration taking place today.  

               This is why I am so anti-Clinton.  Someone said above about bashing Hillary more than Bush being un-Democratic.  Well imo,Hillary and the DLC are un-Democratic.  They deserve to be bashed more than Bush because Bush is a Republican doing what Republicans do.  Hillary is suppose to be a Democrat, but she's not.  I feel robbed of my vote.

              All I can say to your next piece is, ain't it the truth - for everything we are trying to reform and/or change.  

              In order for any large scale movement demanding reform to be effective, a firm set of unified goals and expectations must be set. Rather than always reacting to what legislation has been presented to us, the movement must define a firm set of goals ...

              When I read your stuff, I don't find much if anything to disagree with. I am glad NPK introduced us; and I don't know why your positions are found so oppositional to Bob's by Bob.  

              The part about immigration that I mind the most is what the politicians turn it into.  If illegal immigrants get education, health care or other benefits in the US, I think that that is unfair.  Not because of color (would feel the same way if they were Irish)but because I am angry that our government won't support these programs at home.  So it is hard to understand why they should hand these benefits out to others when they won't hand them out at home.  Same is true when I listen to Bush talk about building Iraq.  He has no domestic agenda except to steal all of our money on our credit cards, and he wants me to find compassion for them so he can steal even more money from me.  

              Another immigration issue I think about is "taking cuts".  Like the story you posted about the young girl who had been here for 20 years, doing faithfully what she should and getting deported at the end.  Should people sneaking in in a mass large enough to be difficult to manage get to stay before her?  What about others who are still waiting in line to come?

              Another problem I have with the immigration rhetoric from politicians is the "we can't find and deport 12 million illegals".  I don't even have a wholesale opinion on whether or not they should be deported, but it pisses me off that the politicians babble that lie unchallenged.  If they can't deal with 12 million illegals, why do they think "finding and jailing 15 million illegal drug users" is a "good war" on drugs.   This remains me of the line of BS about not having the votes to end the war, when all they have to do is not even put it up for a vote.  They think we are totally stupid.  

              I read all the links you give me, and I really don't find you to be arbitrary, anti-American or anti-labor.  I am sorry you and Bob can't work together for change because this is an important issue for the country.  Job loss, unfair trade, and the increasing number of people on US soil are not going to go away anytime soon.  

              No justice, no peace.

              by dkmich on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 08:23:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thank you for reading my stuff (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Nightprowlkitty, mariachi mama

                I don't expect everyone to agree with everything I say...all I ask is that people are open enough to listen.

                We my never agree on certain aspects of this issue but at least the lines of communication can remain open and we can learn more about each others concerns.

                That sadly is the problem Bob. He shuts down all lines of communication with anyone who doesn't agree 100% with his positions ...and even more unfortunate, he'll side with those who are obviously approaching this issue from an angle of hatred...as long as they      they take his side.

                •  full of shit Duke (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  uscitizenvoter

                  I cannot communicate with someone who endorses the TR gang and tries to repress facts with name calling as you do.  I cannot communicate with someone who cannot deal with economic realities of any kind...

                  for example the CIR...you only became nice because obviously you couldn't understand it, you couldn't understand how your illegals would never see the light of day for citizenship by the subtlety of the legal language....you could care less about what such policy actually does to working Americans...you simply needed someone who could read the legislation to help you.

                  I note not a one of your little TR gang that follows you around could analyze even the first line of that bill...so what choice did you have but to turn to someone who actually has some understanding of the issues...

                  unlike your little name calling gang.  Yet not once will you bother to point out your little name calling gang has no freakin' clue.  Nope you join right in there and you especially enjoy repressing information that is relevant to US labor.  

                  http://blog.noslaves.com

                  by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:15:38 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  your right Bob (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Nightprowlkitty

                    I can't understand legislation without coming to you to explain it ....do you know how insane that sounds? Don't you realize that other people here actually read diaries, check links, have read my work for the last 3 years both here and at my site? You're acting nuts here ...you need to get a grip.

                    •  you did just that (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      uscitizenvoter

                      and you know it. You couldn't get the details on "merit" points of the real intent of the corporate lobbyists for cheap labor.  

                      Your site?  You mean the one that promotes phony economic "reports" written by some "advocacy" group as real labor economics data?  uh huh.

                      You cannot even handle it when a respected labor economics calls out some facts.  You even have Paul Krugman talking about the economic realities of illegal immigration but of course that would never make your site....nope, anything based in reality simply does not get discussed.  

                      Your entire little name calling TR gang, not a single one can read a bill, never mind analyze it for the real intent, not a one....so of course you encourage them to go after the people who can.  

                      And of course you cannot even handle the complexities yourself, trying to name call me, claim I have positions I do not have and of course I do not have them because it is the details that are the policy, not your little LaBrea Tar Pits of absolutes that you put out there ...I guess for self grandiosity purposes.  

                      http://blog.noslaves.com

                      by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 10:43:10 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  whatever (0+ / 0-)

                        Bob..you didn't even have a copy of the bill until I gave it to you, you didn't know the current green card quotas. You thought it was 2mil a year because that's what Lou told you...I turned you on to the whole merit-system being a sham, all you were looking for was H1b indcreases. I only went to you because I wanted to know about certain aspects of tech training required of immigrants to get work visas, and you seemed to be the logical choice. ... so just drop it.

                        I've got the e-mails, I know how it went down, don't make me argue this, you look like an ass.  

                        •  threats again Duke? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          uscitizenvoter

                          Last time I recall you claimed that you were a big dude with big connections, you knew people in the blogs and you can get me banned in 2 seconds...

                          I have the threatening emails that you sent, letting me know if I state my opinion or write what I am active on...gee wiz, you have so much power you can just have me banned!
                          So, when it comes down to getting you cornered you try to silence me by threatening to have me banned.  Now isn't that so Democratic of you.

                          No, I already had the bill and was already analyzing it in detail.  

                          Now, who is the ass who tries to misrepresent what our group is, who we are, what are backgrounds are (a little uncool outing activity for ya!, gee I think there are only about 10 comments from you posting misinformation on who we actually are...now as I recall that was supposedly an offense warranting banning), who we are associated with or where we stand or even what the concerns were in that bill.  

                          Nope, not a clue.  You don't even know what the F-4 is and obviously deny the AFL-CIO position on it.

                          http://blog.noslaves.com

                          by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:22:00 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

            •  no, you ripped a critical story (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              uscitizenvoter

              that's what you do not realize, you ripped to shreds a report for US, by US with your absurd racist xenophobe rhetoric.  You tried to repress in the blogs, information we worked on and wanted out there in the MSM.  We got the report and you of course wrote yet another absurd "racist xenophobe" diary trying to repress that very segment so critical to STEM labor.

              and that was so rude, so outrageous and it is very difficult to get objective factual reporting in the MSM...so here was a major accomplishment on a breaking story and here comes this idiotic blog posting claiming it's all "racist xenophobe" so no one would look at the real evidence, statistics.

              You directly attacked our cause, our issue and then tried to claim it's all "racist xenophobe" while the entire IT industry is under attack.  It means millions of jobs, families, careers.

              http://blog.noslaves.com

              by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:08:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Interesting. (0+ / 0-)

            I think protecting American jobs and the American middle class is protecting the American dream, which is why all of us immigrants came here in the first place.

            I think you have put in a nutshell the issues we are all grappling with here.  For if you are too severe in "protecting American jobs," as the present system is with its mishmash of bad laws and both ineffective and brutal enforcement (ICE), then you are killing the dream for future immigrants.

            And of course if we don't strengthen and protect our labor laws, immigration, both legal and undocumented, will share the same degradation with the rest of the labor force in America.

            So to me the question lies in how this goal should be met.

            Regardless of the positions taken, the rhetoric of Lou Dobbs and FAIR and other right wing hate groups should not be part of this dialogue.

            And that's only one part of the struggle and conflict which comes from discussing this issue -- because for far too long the right wing has defined and framed the debate.  I think Duke is one of the best in the blogosphere when it comes to reframing and redefining this debate from a Progressive view.

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