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View Diary: A Glimmer of Hope; fees increase on H-1B guest worker Visas (203 comments)

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  •  you are said (1+ / 0-)
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    I tr comments most worthy and you are most assuredly posting massive lies and distortions, plus spamming the story (which obviously no one bothered to read or even stay on topic about).  

    No, you have NO CLUE on our real positions which are repeatedly like a mantra in every diary and in the top comments.  It's clear what bills we endorse and push and there are right there and you continue to show your true colors of yet another member of an insane, spam fest, "" type of liar who no more cares about labor issues than Mitt Romney.

    by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 01:03:32 PM PDT

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    •  since your such a pro-labor guy (1+ / 0-)
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      I'll ask you I have asked on numerous occasions:

      Do you support the official AFL-CIO position on Immigration reform as expressed by President John Sweeney and the rest of the leadership?

      In 1997, the U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform validated our belief that a "properly regulated system of permanent admissions serves the national interest" and warned that another temporary-worker program would be a "grievous mistake." This means that everyone who is admitted to work must immediately be on a track toward permanent residency or citizenship.

      La Times, 4-10-07, editorial by John Sweeney, Pres. AFL-CIO

      March 01, 2006 in San Diego, CA

      Uniform enforcement of workplace standards must be a priority.

      (The) exploitation of workers will continue as long, as it makes economic sense to do so, to the detriment of U.S.-born and foreign-born workers alike.  Unfortunately, the lax enforcement of labor and employment laws has given too many unscrupulous employers the economic incentive to recruit undocumented workers...

      The only meaningful way to remove that perverse economic incentive and to equalize the competitive playing field is to ensure that all those who gain the benefit of a worker’s labor, ... abide by all labor and employment laws.  That means that the immigration reform law must provide real and enforceable remedies for labor and employment law violations that are available to all workers, regardless of their immigration status...

      Reforms must provide a path to permanent residency for the currently undocumented workers who have paid taxes and made positive contributions to their communities.

      Legalization is an important worker protection.  History shows that legalizing this population benefits all workers. ...  Without a legalization program, the economic incentive to hire and exploit the undocumented will remain, to the detriment of U.S. workers who labor in the same industries as the undocumented, because all workers will see their working conditions plummet.

      We must reverse the trend of allowing employers to turn permanent, full-time year-round jobs into temporary jobs through attempts to broaden the size and scope of guestworker programs.

      ...Guestworker programs are bad public policy and operate to the detriment of workers, in the both the public and private sector, and of working families in the U.S.  The abuses suffered by workers in the first such program, the post World-War II Bracero program, are well documented.  The negative effects of the modern versions of the "guestworker" construct—such as the H1-B and H2-B programs—are all too evident today.  Workers around the country are witnessing the transformation of formerly well-paying, permanent jobs into temporary jobs with little or no benefits, which employers are staffing with vulnerable foreign workers who have no real enforceable rights through the guestworker programs.  These modern programs have had a major and substantial detrimental effect on important sectors of our economy.

      In our view, there is no good reason why any immigrant who comes to this country prepared to work, to pay taxes, and to abide by our laws and rules should be denied what has been offered to immigrants throughout our country’s history, a path to legal citizenship.  To embrace instead the creation of a permanent two-tier workforce, with non-U.S. workers relegated to second-class "guestworker" status, would be repugnant to our traditions and our ideals and disastrous for the living standards of working families.

      Long-Term Labor Shortages Should be Filled With Workers with Full Rights

      We recognize that our economy may face real labor shortages in the coming years, as the baby boomer generation retires.  Instead of relying on a construct that guarantees the deterioration of working conditions in the U.S., we should focus on a meaningful solution that guarantees full workplace rights for all workers, both foreign-born and native, and also permits employers to hire foreign workers to fill proven labor shortages.  The solution is simple: Congress should revise the permanent employment-based visas system and devote more resources to removing processing delays.  

      Employment-based admissions for permanent visas (commonly known as "green cards") are subject to labor certification provisions...(and Congress has arbitrarily set the number of these visas at 140,000 annually.  That approach should be changed so that the number of visas available responds to actual, demonstrated labor shortages, which will satisfy employers’ needs for workers, and will prevent the creation of a secondary class of workers and residents, because the new foreign workers will have full employment rights and the promise of a permanent future in our democracy. # Reform of immigration laws must consider the root causes of migration, and must take into account the global economic policies, as well as U.S. foreign policy that are pushing workers to migrate

      Without rising living standards abroad for workers and the poor, the pressure for illegal immigration will continue.  U.S. foreign policy, as well as trade and globalization policies, must be grounded upon a coherent national economic strategy, as described in An Economic Agenda for Working Families, adopted at the AFL-CIO’s 2005 Convention.

      Responsible Reform of Immigration Laws Must Protect Working Conditions for all Workers in the U.S. AFL-CIO

      A simple yes or no will do...but somehow I don't think you'll answers as you have failed to do so many times in the past.

      •  that's amusing (1+ / 0-)
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        because you and your open border pals are most assuredly not endorsed by the AFL-CIO, nor representing that position.  

        by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 01:57:34 PM PDT

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        •  but again you avoid the question (1+ / 0-)
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          I can say unequivocally that I back the AFL-CIO position 100%...and have written numerous diaries in support of those positions....can you say the same. Do you support these quoted positions or's a simple question.

          1. Everyone who is admitted to work must immediately be on a track toward permanent residency or citizenship
          1. provide real and enforceable remedies for labor and employment law violations that are available to all workers, regardless of their immigration status
          1. provide a path to permanent residency for the currently undocumented workers who have paid taxes and made positive contributions to their communities
          1. there is no good reason why any immigrant who comes to this country prepared to work, to pay taxes, and to abide by our laws and rules should be denied what has been offered to immigrants throughout our country’s history, a path to legal citizenship.
          1. Congress should revise the permanent employment-based visas system and devote more resources to removing processing delays.
          1. (Policy should be) changed so that the number of visas available responds to actual, demonstrated labor shortages, which will satisfy employers’ needs for workers, and will prevent the creation of a secondary class of workers and residents, because the new foreign workers will have full employment rights and the promise of a permanent future in our democracy.
          1. U.S. foreign policy, as well as trade and globalization policies, must be grounded upon a coherent national economic strategy
          •  those are not AFL-CIO positions (1+ / 0-)
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            and I know for certain you just use AFL-CIO positions for your open border agenda for they strongly talk about stopping the influx as well as interior enforcement, which you blast at every chance you can get....

            you're just an open border spammer who posts extremely, very poorly done propaganda papers not based in real labor economics for some nebulous position not based in global labor markets.  
            and my favorite activity of yours is your constant "so and so is a racist xenophobe" whatever long, long, verbiage that belongs straight into the great digital garbage can.  Oops, lest me not forget the attacks on real labor positions such as the original intent of this diary.  but I guess you don't really care about that one...the fact that the AFL-CIO and it's various unions affiliated with professional workers endorsed this amendment.  

            I have no idea what your trip is but it sure isn't based in any real economic theory or even the real AFL-CIO positions.  


            by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 02:19:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  follow the links bob (1+ / 0-)
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              those are exact quotes from both Sweeney's op-ed and the 2006 San Diego statement.

              As much as you don't like it, these are the official positions of the AFL-CIO.

              And it's also obvious that your absolute inability to accept them as such proves you don't support them.

              So you can stop the "I'm a labor guy..and your not" facade you chuck around here all the time.

              I know for a fact (because I've spoken with them) that you have on numerous occasions troll rated and attacked representative of the AFL-CIO who post here....because they hold  different positions than you when it comes to legalization of the undocumented, opposition to the immigration raids, and changing the green card quotas to better reflect real needs.

              You can have all the pissing matches you want, and claim you know better what the "true" positions of organized labor are...but the facts are against you.

              •  oh clueless misinformation spammer (1+ / 0-)
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                Here it is in reprint, NO, they do NOT endorse green card giveaways via Academia, which is the F-4 proposal.

                You have no clue Duke, spammer of AFL-CIO positions, insult troll and spammer extrodinaire trying to silence labor actvists....yup, oh Duke, ye of opposition position that ye try to have none.  You are so anti-worker who simply name calls to hide the fact...very nice propaganda techniques...

                So, once again...

                and I'm not even listing the other departments of the AFL-CIO yet.  Oops, but you don't care about reality as I've noted repeatedly, just some bizarre spammer trip to I guess take up your day?  Maybe you should consider finding a job.

                AFL-CIO , Department of Professional Employees

                But the "Great American Jobs Giveaway" doesn’t begin and end with these H-1B provisions. Through changes in the student visa program, our own sons and daughters will be out of luck when in comes to coveted training and job prospects.

                Student visas were originally intended to allow foreign students to come to the U.S for one purpose—education. Changes proposed would put tens of thousands of foreign students in direct competition with our own undergraduate and graduate students for full and part time job opportunities. For our own, many U.S. students need those jobs to pay their way through school, to help pay off thousands of dollars in education loans and in many situations to gain the skills and experience necessary for a successful career. The challenges confronting them should not be made more onerous because of changes in the student visa program.

                The new F-4 visa for those pursuing an advanced degree in math, engineering, technology and physical sciences coupled with the impact of H-1B will in fact work in tandem to discourage American students from pursuing an education in these so-called shortage disciplines. Simply stated, their job opportunities will be limited both before and after graduation and their wage prospects diminished by foreign workers who, studies have shown, are paid far less than the prevailing rate. The end result will be ironically more—not fewer—labor shortages in key occupations.


                by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 02:59:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  yes bob, we all oppose increased guestworker visa (1+ / 0-)
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                  Me, You, the AFL-CIO... many many more in the migrants-rights movement. And that of course was the main point of the article you linked to.

                  BUT that still doesn't answer the you support the positions of the AFL-CIO regarding legalization of the undocumented, enforcement of workplace regulations as opposed to immigration raids, providing an easier path to LPR and citizenship for all immigrants etc....all those things listed above.

                  why can't you answer that simple question.

                  •  I have many times (1+ / 0-)
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                    Duke, you've got to know I think you're a joke.  You have no credibility with me, I consider you a fly, a buzz saw, an absolute waste of time and most importantly very very anti-progressive and anti-labor.

                    You spam the very positions that are desired by the few Progressives we have in name call the very people trying to help these very Progressives in are a blight on the cause.

                    you spam well known AFL-CIO positions, you spam policies that are being lobbied for by labor on the hill...very hard fought little progress that can be made...well, I can guarantee you will be there, distorting the facts, posting ad hominem attacks and subverting this very progress.

                    It's so bad I believe you are a corporate spam troll for your attempts to subvert and sabotage well know agendas of the Progressive caucus in congress...such as this very simple amendment which this story is about... which will probably be attacked by corporate lobbyists.

                    and here you are with your ad hominem attacks, misquotes and lies....making sure corporate lobbyists can complete their agenda to kill a very simple funding mechanism for super smart US kids.  


                    by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 03:19:14 PM PDT

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                  •  LOL (1+ / 0-)
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                    you don't even know what the F-4 is about do you.

                    You just, well, why should I be surprised....of course you don't.  no, that is not the AFL-CIO position as I just directly quoted from just one letter out of dozens, dozens from the various arms of that union.  

                    But, then of course you really don't care about the AFL-CIO since you try to distort it to mean your open border whatever insanity or maybe it's just so you can accuse people of being a racist xenophobe...seemingly your favorite daily activity.  

                    Go write another Lou Dobbs diary Duke, I'm sure you'll make great progress in advancing a labor really helps, really does...or hell, call a member of congress a racist xenophobe while you're at it...
                    have fun, ad photos even.


                    by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 03:24:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  congratulations you just reached 150 comments (1+ / 0-)
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                      in one of your usually don't get out of the teens ....but then again without the flamewars that's where this one would be also. Good thing for you you're so well known and well loved least you can attract some attention to your point of view ...even if the vast majority come only to call you out.

                      •  Yeah ... (1+ / 0-)
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                        ... but now "corporate spam troll" ... that's a new one!


                        •  sure you're a corporate spam troll (1+ / 0-)
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                          but as I noted you cannot answer one position from the Progressive caucus, not a one...
                          and of course spam diaries that are in essence obvious internal materials from that very congressional caucus....

                          but of course since you pay no attention to the actual diaries, policy positions, press releases or testimony from hearings...

                          well, maybe you do notice that fact....or more maybe you do and why resort to ad hominem attack....

                          Anyway, I'm sorry you hate progressives but it's a huge contingency within the Democratic party and we're here to get our policy positions through whether you like it or not.


                          by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 04:31:35 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Well Bob ... (0+ / 0-)

                            ... it's been a lovely chat.  Glad we were able to share ideas.

                            Later, gator.

                          •  you've never chatted (1+ / 0-)
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                            nope, cannot answer a single point of the issues, fail to note what I write about and spam my very important Progressive issues with rude insulting comments.


                            by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 08:53:06 PM PDT

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                          •  Well I did just then! (0+ / 0-)

                            (chatted, that is).  See the comment you just responded to!


                          •  no (1+ / 0-)
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                            you have done drive-bys, insults, name calling and TRed people who have an opinion you deem you do not like without understanding the complexities of these various proposals or their concerns.  You uprated a sockpuppet from India where spamming Progressive successes on labor issues has been posted on their blog as an action item.  (NASSCOM considers this a trade issue).

                            You have spammed a diary about a Progressive caucus success with a call to action to make it survive the conferees and Bush's veto corporate agenda.  You cannot answer a single question that has everything to do with labor economics and also the topic of immigration, of which I have never written a story on and which this diary is not about...yet addressed it anyway.  You have TRed known labor activists who took a stab at blogging and alienated them.  You have alienated Populist Democrats who are actually involved in their local Democrat party.  


                            by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 09:34:38 PM PDT

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                          •  Oh Bob. (1+ / 0-)
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                            mariachi mama

                            Disagreeing with you is not spamming.  Nor am I a ... what was the term you used ... oh yeah, "corporate spam troll."  Nor have I given out one troll rating in this diary -- those have been all yours.  I think you are confused.

                            Nighty night.

                          •  your pattern of abuse (1+ / 0-)
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                            is well documented right in your own comments if you want to call just slanderous abuses comments.

                            Absolutely a corporate spam troll is someone who you do...and you do...and name you do....on positions that are actually Progressive positions, such as this particular bury support for that very agenda...

                            that is precisely what you are doing.

                            Posting in diaries you don't even read, such as this one...or more have no ability to understand is probably more like it.

                            What is the real underlying agenda of corporate written trade agreements according to Klein's book, "the shock doctrine"?

                            You don't have a clue do you, no, I think not.


                            by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 12:45:25 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This isn't going to work for you. (0+ / 0-)

                            I will put my comment and ratings history against yours any day of the week, Bob.  Folks can easily look up both and find you are the one doing the troll rating and making the insulting comments.  You are also accusing folks of being trolls and stalkers with no proof whatsoever (in distinct contrast to those of us who have posted links of your own ill-advised comments defending Lou Dobbs and trashing other posters as well as uprating troll comments).  I'm more than happy for folks to find out this information for themselves.

                            Yes, I am interested in finding Progressive solutions to the challenges of immigration law, policy and enforcement.  I am willing to learn from anyone on this issue, but I am adamantly opposed to discussing any one aspect of it through the Lou Dobbs, FAIR, etc., lense, because each aspect impacts upon the other.

                            As long as you are willing to buy into the Dobbsian right-wing frame, it doesn't matter in which particular area you claim expertise, Bob.  I will oppose that frame and that view.

                            That is not stalking.  What is out of bounds for this site is supporting right wing talking points, and Lou Dobbs and his ilk fit perfectly into that category.

                            You are the one who is breaking the rules of this site -- making false accusations towards those who disagree with you, inappropriate troll rating, and uprating comments that are racist, xenophobic and right wing.  If you continue to do so, you will be the one to find yourself in trouble at this site, no one else.

                      •  calling you out Duke (1+ / 0-)
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                        and that's what you hate.  

                        I see your little gang, one who has two sockpuppet ids and then a whole lot of other people who support Senator Sanders and Grassley on this amendment.

                        That must be why you are so filled with hate and spam...the Progressives are making progress in spite of your best efforts to repress it.


                        by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 04:28:19 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Quit fighting and throwing donuts all over. (1+ / 0-)
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                          Do you think that helps your/the cause?  I know you catch hell every time you post on this subject, but you need to stop fighting with them here.  I think you and duke should have a conversation.  I can't believe that as important as jobs are, there can't be a civil dialog that supports labor and immigration.  We need both.

                          No justice, no peace.

                          by dkmich on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 07:42:14 PM PDT

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                          •  explanation (2+ / 0-)
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                            dkmich, uscitizenvoter

                            Duke has spammed diaries of mine on trade, education, R&D government initiatives....not exactly "immigration" topics and most important Progressive topics.  He and this gang hit this one already and it was after it rolled off the boards which tells you something.  No, I tried that, I even helped him analyze the comprehensive immigration bill, but unfortunately he is more interested in name calling, posting misinformation and most importantly uprating our little sockpuppets and those who insult.  He also has spammed my other diaries, this is on trade with China, National Science Academies R&D agenda and hearing, you name it.  

                            He tries to sound diplomatic but trust me, he'll uprate obvious sockpuppets and post misinformation and most importantly encourage those who name call and TR rate very good progressive Democrats, which they do constantly.

                            As far as the donuts, those are the ones who have TRed people off the boards and encourage others to gang up on them and TR them off the boards.  So, when they post a TR worthy thing, I use it just to remove their TU status so they cannot abuse it and TR people speaking their opinions.


                            by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 09:00:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm sorry. (2+ / 0-)
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                            BobOak, uscitizenvoter

                            I tried to make peace.  

                            No justice, no peace.

                            by dkmich on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 09:05:00 PM PDT

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                          •  yeah (1+ / 0-)
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                            but unfortunately they clearly have an "agenda" and it sure isn't about some sort of policy that is Progressive.  I mean look at this one, the leader of the Progressive caucus...that's what the text is, it's rewritten press releases from congressional offices and from labor organizations and then see what the little gang says. They uprated a guy who tried to imply Senator Bernie Sanders, leader of the House Progressive caucus, founder of it, still running it as a Senator...someone who is so Progressive he's a socialist, he isn't even a Democrat..and they spam that and try to imply he's "racist" over a scholarship, a little fee increase, some money for super smart kids.  Good God.

                            They have a little agenda, which at this point all I can really figure out is to name call. Because I always have TU, I step in and stop when they are busy ganging up on someone via donuts who happens to fall into their little LaBrea Tar Pit trap on one of their "everyone is a racist xenophobe who disagrees with x" on some nebulously defined "no immigration policy at all" "diaries".    

                            I go back on forth on it, but they managed to TR off the site two labor activities already so that's when I decided to use my TU to try to stop their donut making ability for a moment to some positive effect...people still complain about them but so far no one has been autobanned that I'm aware of.  Kos I know did one purge of these "troll hunters" awhile ago, but obviously not enough.


                            by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 09:23:18 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm so sick if your full of shit troll stories (2+ / 0-)
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                            Nightprowlkitty, mariachi mama

                            Like I've said before I'll put up my ratings record:

                            against yours:


                            In three years I've given out less then 5 troll give that out every day.

                            The reason you've got so many problems in your diaries, and so many people coming in to give you a hard time is due to your constant troll rating in other peoples diaries. You've made a ton of enemies with your one-man quest to attack anyone you disagree with.

                            As to your idiotic claim about Kos purging "troll hunters"... that shit might fly with newbies who weren't here at the time... but everyone who was here at the time knows it had nothing whatsoever to do with you or those you troll rate's pure all your other claims.

                            The records speak for themselves, and everyone can see them.

                            You engage in ratings abuse all the time, and have been warned about it by frontpagers stop all the "inocent victim" bullshit. If you behaved like a normal person and just let people hold their own opinions without constantly attacking them, you wouldn't have the problems that you do.

            •  btw (1+ / 0-)
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              I actually do back the amendment ...and haven't voiced a single word of opposition to it.

              It's you and your agenda that I don't support.

              It's your opposition to the DREAM act when it has absolutely nothing to do with labor issues, it's your opposition to a path to legalization for the undocumented when even the AFL-CIO support it, it's your support for every piece of punitive Republican immigration legislation coming from both the House and Senate, it's your support for the workplace raids that every union has spoken out against, It's your quoting of dubious sources like CIS and FAIR. Throughout the years you have made your positions quite well known, and those who have been here any length of time know them ...and most have nothing to do with "labor issues" although you like to claim such.

              It's you bob, and your real positions I oppose. ...and that is what I have voiced in this have many others.

              and that's to bad, because this really is a decent amendment..but your presenting it here has poisoned the well for many I'm sure

              •  uh huh (1+ / 0-)
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                You're one spamming blogger who write volumes of nonsense which generates a good...5 comments...and so in frustration you attack and spam very good diarists but only when you can get away with it.

                like this one, after it rolled off the pages.  and you can never get too far when one of mine hits you could not with Sirota although I saw you tried, realized it wouldn't work on that one and thus gave up......I see the pattern quite clearly and I'm so sorry you cannot get the Progressive community to adopt your insane policy positions, well, maybe not so sorry.


                by BobOak on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 03:06:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I never once (1+ / 0-)
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                posted any comment, anything about any position w.r.t. the Dream act.  I stopped you and your gang from trying to TR and name call insult those Dems who were opposed to it.  But as usual, domination by any means is your game so because I won't let you chase away very good Dems who have different positions that whatever the hell yours is, you try to claim I make statements that I in fact never have.

                BTW, what does w.r.t stand for?  I'm sure you do not know since you cannot consider even a basic labor economics study critically.


                by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 12:55:31 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  you poisoned it (1+ / 0-)
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                as your obvious intent..just as every time a report comes out in favor of US professional try to repress it with your "racist xenophobe" rants...
                and why you and your gang spams attempt to repress facts and information.

                This is why you are a corporate troll in disguise.


                by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:34:15 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  by proxy (1+ / 0-)
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                you uprate and encourage the others to TR.  you post comments trying to enforce their name calling, TR gang behavior.  Link to those activities and get honest.


                by BobOak on Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:24:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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