Skip to main content

View Diary: THE HILL: Dems Face Revolt Over Free Trade In Advance of Vote (266 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Let's see if we can hop off the war frame... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tecampbell, TomP, kyril

    I like to think of it as we're feeding our people to the economy.

    Is there a new kind of frame that conjures this kind of thing instead of the 'war frame'?

    And believe me I understand it's a war, but there's so much war these days that I don't think people can wrap their heads around it.

    Sharing and Caring are for Commies! They should be illegal.

    by k9disc on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 12:27:46 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  But they're all the same war (7+ / 0-)

      The Drug War, War on Terra, Iraq, Afghanistan...all the same. All part of the Global War on People.

      During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

      by kyril on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 12:52:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Selling peanut butter here. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dave925, TomP, kyril

        If anyone didn't see 60 minutes expose on Doctors W/Out Borders and their efforts to feed starving populaces with fortified peanut butter, I would highly recommend it.

        It reminded me of what progressivism is supposed to be about:  solutions.

        I'm trying to think of something positive before bed.  

        Lets hope the people win the war for once.

        For every penny the West gives in aid to Africa a 'counterpenny' is given to tear these cultures apart through war.

        by tecampbell on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 01:26:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I know, but that's the thing with framing... (7+ / 0-)

        all of the 'known' wars send a muddy message. It's just too much to separate.

        It's like that with lots of stuff.

        Take "Corporate Power and Personhood" for instance. If we push a strategic initiative on this front, people's eyes glaze over.

        Then the Cons of the DLC come in and say,"Why are you against Business?" and the glaze eyed masses nod their heads.

        But, if we take Rockridge's advice and talk about "Healthy Food" and "Clean Elections" the "Common Good" and "Common Wealth" and "Human Dignity" we step outside of that business frame and point the interrogation light on "Corporate Power and Personhood", all the while not even mentioning "Corporate Power and Personhood".

        I'm a dog trainer, and I do positive training. My whole goal is to get the dog to think that they're manipulating me. Their behavior affects the consequence. I make it their decision by limiting their access to other decisions. I plan the choices carefully.

        We were conducting seminars in Europe earlier this year, and while in Poland, it hit me: American Capitalism is positive dog training. Americans believe their free. The market is free. The government is coercive So nothing we say about 'Corporations stealing their freedom' can sink in, because everybody knows that the government is the oppressor. We've been conditioned, operantly and classically, to this understanding.

        It's a square peg in a round hole to say that we must depend on government to help us.

        I believe that there's a classically conditioned response that has to be addressed first, just as there is a classically conditioned response to be addressed first in dog aggression.

        This is going to get weird, and I apologize, but it's a stream of consciousness that is important to me...

        Dogs, most of the time are aggressive with other dogs because they're scared. They're scared, so they growl. Growling works, so they go back to the behavior because it works. When it doesn't work, and the other dog gets too close they bite, starting a fight. The fight proves that the dog should be scared. So now the dog growls harder and earlier, while the dog is farther away.

        After a few years of this; fear, fighting and handler correction, there is a classically conditioned response : dog=fear/pain.

        Literally, the appearance of a dog creates the physiological response of fight or flight: increased heart rate, pilloric reflex, adrenaline rush.

        A dog cannot make decisions that do not have to do with fight or flight because of this physiological state.

        What must happen is counter conditioning. We do this most often with food. We try to change the 'frame' from dog=fear/pain to dog=food/satisfaction.

        Once the physiological state has been changed, then we can begin to address the operant end, the end that deals with behavior. We can get behaviors that don't fit within the fight or flight physiology. We can get reasoned, calm decision making.

        When dog=food/satisfaction, we can address the problem behavior in a logical manner.

        How does this relate to what we were initially talking about, the 'War' frame?

        I think what we need is a change from fear/pain in order to get different parts of the mind working; we need to change the physiological state.

        If we have people thinking about things that don't raise their hackles, that don't raise the specter of war, death and killing, then we can get them to follow the logic and change their behavior.

        I hope some of this makes sense to you, it sure does to me.

        In fact, I think that feeding our people to the economy is still too harsh and fear based language.

        After writing this, I think that the whole idea of framing has a lot to do with classically conditioned behavior. Government=bad. Freemarkets=democracy. I think that is extremely interesting.

        So where do we go with this, I don't know. But I don't think that another war frame will fix the problem.

        Any thoughts?

        Sharing and Caring are for Commies! They should be illegal.

        by k9disc on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 01:26:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Brilliantly Put (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TomP, kyril

          and no, i don't where to go from this. I'm not sure how to change the physiological response first, but when people are open to a new message, it should be that goernments are regretably neccessary. Indulge me by reading my comment here for a basic rundown of the re-framing of government message. I'd be interested to know what you think.

          This ballot is loaded, and I'm not afraid to use it.

          by BlueGenes on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 11:31:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Responsibility of government is to people (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BlueGenes

            Responsibility of private enterprise is to profit.

            When we talk of vital services, we are talking about things that are vital to People - People need them to survive. Taking profit off the top of vital services means that people get less of these vital services.

            Some things are more important than profit, and People are some of those things.

            Government should protect and serve the people before it protects and serves profit.

            It's simple... really.
            I think it's high time that we start protecting ourselves and taking care of ourselves and that means we have to protect and take care of our government.

            Sharing and Caring are for Commies! They should be illegal.

            by k9disc on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 12:53:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site