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View Diary: OH-05: The (R) campaign: hate on brown people (258 comments)

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  •  Congrats for repeating RW talking points (7+ / 0-)

    Sorry but all three of those reasons are pathetic.

    •  Thank you for pointing that out. (6+ / 0-)

      This poster has repeatedly decided to call undocumented workers "illegals," dehumanizing them and feeding into RW frames, even though s/he has been called on it many times.

      S/he also repeats false information on the cost to society of undocumented workers, again, after many times being called on it.

      I find it incredible anyone would recommend his/her comments.

      I also find it incredible that anyone here would still accept the term "illegals" to describe human beings.

      •  So what is the "politically correct" term (5+ / 2-)
        Recommended by:
        Christin, elliott, redcardphreek, brentmack, echatwa
        Hidden by:
        MI Sooner, Brad007

        then to call those who are not in proper immigration status here? Unless you believe that these persons without papers--maybe that is politically correct enough for you--are in compliance with US immigration law, what other word can you use besides "illegal" since they are in an "illegal status"?

      •  Why Do We Need To Buy Your Frame? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Christin, EastCoastShock

        Sure, "undocumented" goes down easier than "illegal" - but so what?

        They have entered this country illegally.  Are you disputing that point?

        Now why don't you stop quibbling over frames - and lay out your position on the issue so that we see what the choices really are?

        •  Goes down easier? (6+ / 0-)

          Um, no.  Calling a human being "illegal" is just plain wrong.  If I have to explain that to you, then you are the one with the problem.

          If you see below in the thread I do just that, lay out the plan I think is best -- quoting from Duke1676's great work on this issue.

          "Frames" are of utmost importance in this discussion, as the right wing's framing of the issue is what the Rahm Emmanuel's of the Dem party have fed into, and to our detriment.

          We need to stop playing defense and start playing offence -- and framing is most certainly part of that.

          What is your solution?  Or are you only interested in quibbling so you can dehumanize folks with your language?

          •  Hmmm... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Christin, Sychotic1

            How about "human beings who are in this country illegally"?

            •  Hmm, How About People Like You Who Always Start (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dianna

              their arguments with character descriptions that centers on of People of Color immigrants, denigrates them, denigrates their heritage, and thereby justifies their continued economic and political exploitation?  Do you do it on purpose?  Or were you trained, and you can't help yourselves?

            •  How about ... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dianna, leonard145b

              ... undocumented workers?

              Many of these folks have varying stories -- many have visas and are here waiting for our dysfunctional ICE to process their paperwork.

              So no, your description is not accurate.

              And why is it so important for you to use that label in conversation?  If you have a friend who got convicted of a DUI, do you introduce him like this:  "Oh hi, Jim!  Jim, I'd like you to meet my friend, drunk driver Tom!  Drunk Driver Tom, this is my friend Jim."

              Yeah, right.

              •  Different label... (0+ / 0-)

                ...same issue.  I agree that most pelple in this country illegally are here for economic reasons.  And you're right that we shouldn't forget that they are human beings.  But the issue still remains despite the change in designation.

                Your example's a little silly, really...

                •  Yeah ... (0+ / 0-)

                  ... I guess I had to use a silly example to respond to an equally silly question.

                  Seeing as you agree we shouldn't forget they are human beings, even you admit that's sort of silly.  So why not refrain from calling human beings "illegals"?

                  I fail to see any real objection here.

                  I have set forth how I think this issue should be handled.  I have yet to see your plan.

                  •  Two points of order... (0+ / 0-)
                    1.  I think you'll find I never referred to persons here illegally as "illegals".  You're probably thinking oceanstar.
                    1.  I actually haven't seen your plan for handling the issue.

                    Mine?  Time permits only a short answer - at least monitor the border and other points of entry better, and monitor the expiration of visas better, and return those individuals here without permission from where they came (subject to a few humanitarian exceptions).

                    •  Never said ... (0+ / 0-)

                      ... you used the term.  But you did ask about it and I answered.

                      It's not my plan, lol.  I make no such grand claims.  It's in this thread, but if you link to Duke1676's diaries you'll see it as well.  He has also written a more comprehensive progressive plan for immigration that was on the FP here at Daily Kos a while back.

                      Your last point -- which boils down really to deportation, is problematic and I don't agree with it.  We have 12 million undocumented workers here.  Even without going into the economic harm and moral issues, it would cost an untold amount of money to deport that many folks.

                      I hope you do read Duke's diary. It deals with the issues you are talking about here.

            •  It's verbose, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Nightprowlkitty, Dianna

              but accurate and, for lack of a better word, compassionate.

              I still prefer to say "undocumented person" or similar. "Person who is in this country illegally" is just too many words.  But I agree, no person is illegal.

          •  How in the hell (0+ / 0-)

            is it "dehumanizing" someone who is in this country illegally?
            They are illegal immigrants period
            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            When people come into our country illegally, there is no screening process.
            Therefore if a person has a criminal backround, there is no process to weed those people out.

            To say someone is racist against "brown people" (which is a racist euphemism if you ask me) is, in my opinion, just a way to make someone feel bad just because they want people to follow our laws if they are going to come to our country.

            One hotly-debated means to discourage unauthorized migration--laws that deny drivers licenses to people who are in the country illegally--draws support from a majority of the native born, according to a survey of the Latino population in the United States conducted by the Pew Hispanic Center (PHC).

            http://pewhispanic.org/...

            Are they racist against "brown people" too??

            As some of you know, we own a concrete business. The majority of illegal workers who work in construction are paid under the table. In cash.
            Those workers are NOT paying taxes, contrary to what I read on here. And they make damn good money. And they use the things that federal and state payroll taxes finance for free. That is not right nor is it fair to the man with two kids, who is barely making ends meet, but IS paying his taxes.

            No one should be able to come here, break our laws and use our taxpayer funded things for free.
            I can only speak to what I know about personally, but I can assure you that the vast majority of illegals who work in the construction industry do NOT pay payroll taxes.

            If someone wants to migrate to our country they should do it legally. Period.

            •  Difficult to engage ... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hhex65, mariachi mama

              ... all the different points in this comment.

              First, the wiki you link to does not call human beings "illegals."  It simply gives the legal terminology that would be used in court papers and courtrooms.

              I see no defense to calling any human being "illegal."  I don't see why anyone would defend it, either.

              The racism charge is real.  I can't tell you why Latinos in a Pew poll feel the way they do but are you honestly trying to say the video kos has linked to is not racist and not appealing to racism?

              But racism isn't the only problem, either.  Xenophobia, fear of the stranger, is also a big emotion the Repubs pander to.

              I don't disbelieve your anecdote.  The statistics show that undocumented migrants do in fact pay income taxes and social security.  But certainly there are plenty of folks, undocumented or legal citizens, who work under the table.  I won't deny that.

              As far as someone wanting to migrate to this country legally, that is a far different issue.  The way our laws are now that is virtually impossible for too many folks.  Please check out 147, Duke1676's excellent diary on this subject, which lays out all the facts and figures as to who is really to blame for this problem.

              I don't think we disagree on much.  I think strengthening our labor laws will solve much of the problem in your area of construction.  I think going after employers who exploit both poor undocumented workers and poor American citizens who are willing to be abused to make a buck 'cause they can't find any other way to earn money, would also help solve this problem.

              I don't think deporting 12 million people who support economies all over this country will help anyone.

              And I don't think viewing a human being as "illegal" first and foremost is something that can be defended, regardless of whether they are Mexican or Swedish.

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