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View Diary: OH-05: The (R) campaign: hate on brown people (258 comments)

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  •  Oh wow, a few black people.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    leonard145b

    In comparison to probably millions of white people that hate illegals.

    They hate them so much, they stand at the border and try to shoot them.

    It's not the fault of illegals. It's the fault of the corporations that enable them to work in this country, usually for sub-par wages and absolutely no benefits.

    That is the true evil that people should be attacking. Not the manufactured fear of giving illegals drivers' licenses or welfare. Again, manufactured fear.

    •  Not What You Said (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sychotic1, elliott, mariachi mama

      Look, I don't know millions of White people, so I can't make the comparison. Neither can you. Although you are probably right about the ones crawling the border looking for a chance to shoot someone coming across. White people in general tend to go for that more than Black people do.

      But that's not what you said, which was itself a racist statement. And to be more clear, I also know legal immigrants from the same Latin American countries who are defensive about the illegal immigrants from their own countries who compete with them for jobs unfairly, without paying the costs to do it legally.

      You're also half right about who's to blame. The people hiring illegal immigrants knowing, or willfully ignoring, that it's illegal, are certainly at fault. But of course the people who come here illegally are responsible for their actions. They know it's illegal. They are choosing to break the law and take the risks for the chance to make more money. Of course that's their fault - why are you treating them like children who aren't responsible for their actions?

      But of course the entire issue is not nearly as serious a threat as it's made out in the media and especially (typically cowardly) Republican minds. The problem that illegal immigrants certainly represent is not worth nearly the overreaction we have.

      But there is another dimension that is even more serious than anyone talks about. These illegal immigrants should be staying in their own countries making them better. I like them working to make the US better, it serves me, they don't compete with me in my line of work (mainly high-level info architecture and tech consulting), but I would be even better served in the big picture if their countries were freer and more productive. That also means the legal immigrants would be better working back in their own countries, especially since they are more lawful and less subversive to a free country, as their immigration status here demonstrates. It's not that they don't "belong" here (except that immigration laws must be obeyed), but that their own country could use them more, and I appreciate how much better my life would be (including less corruption partners that encourage corruption here in the US) if their own countries were more like the one they like to work in here. I wish the US would stop helping to keep their own countries a much worse choice for the ambitious, both our government and our corporate exploitation of them. I'd rather see us backing people who visit the US only briefly to organize to make their own countries better, maybe protecting their families if they're subject to political persecution while doing so, but mainly helping foreigners to help themselves.

      Immigration is complicated. The reality is hard and often scary enough with out the fear from the racists and their Republican Party, and without treating the immigrants themselves with any less respect or expectations than we do ourselves.

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 06:37:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not a progressive thing (0+ / 0-)

        To take a negative stance on illegal immigration.

        That kind of behavior would be more welcome at redstate or little green footballs.

        If it were not for NAFTA and CAFTA and all the other FTAs, people would not have to move around just to support themselves.

        •  Who Cares About Your Dogma? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          elliott

          Where's your "progressive pope" card that says you get to define who's "progressive" and who's not? Where in the progressive bible did god say we have to agree with every political position someone else calling themself progressive takes? And what's so progressive about failing to protect American labor from unfair competition from illegal immigrants?

          I'm going to go on being progressive, despite your not liking what I'm saying. Just because Conservatives oppose illegal immigration to an insane degree doesn't mean that illegal immigration is OK, or that opposing it sensibly is always Conservative. And, evidently, failing to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration is itself no monopoly of either Conservatives or progressives.

          Illegal immigration was part of America's economy (and most other industrialized countries) well before NAFTA and CAFTA. And will continue to be, regardless of how well we get it under control. What's "progressive" is to leave the old, failed political traps behind, in favor of solutions that support values like protecting ourselves against exploitation, improving our world overall so we live better in it, and thinking for ourselves rather than just adopt a posture like "the progressive thing".

          You know what's not "progressive"? Replying to my detailed, compassionate, yet realistic post that deals in facts and logic, with your obnoxious insult. Why don't you just shut up if you can't debate a point you're posting publicly? That wouldn't be particularly progressive, but at least you wouldn't be acting like a total jerk when people try to talk with you with some respect that you clearly don't deserve.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Tue Dec 04, 2007 at 07:52:42 PM PST

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          •  Obnoxious insult? you wish (0+ / 0-)

            Illegal immigration is a low priority in my book because no matter what laws you make or the fences you erect, people will always find a way to get in and make a better life for themselves. How is that wrong?

            •  Goodbye (0+ / 0-)

              Telling me to go to rightwing Republican websites instead is an obnoxious insult. Now you're denying that with childish comebacks.

              I don't care what you think is wrong, because you've totally discredited yourself. Starting with replying to my post with a strawman that I didn't say, then trying to act like you're in charge of "what's progressive" and insulting me, and now just running away from that by pretending you're debating the issue. Especially because I already agreed with your minor point, and explained how come that doesn't mean you don't do anything.

              You're not worth wasting any more time on. Go act like you're arguing with someone else, who's distracted by your juvenile skills.

              Goodbye.

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

              by DocGonzo on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 07:36:22 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

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