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View Diary: Do You Believe Kiriakou? (184 comments)

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  •  Not being a torturer is worth dying for (8+ / 0-)

    Even if the refusal to torture cost lives, I'd be willing to accept that, including an increased chance that I or someone I love might die, rather than become a monster.

    Personal safety and security are not the highest values, and anyone who thinks they are is an amoral coward.  

    "Men use thought only to justify their wrongdoing, and employ speech only to conceal their thoughts." Voltaire

    by chimpwatch on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 08:45:37 AM PST

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    •  Make sure the recruiters inform the new recruits (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pasajero, carolita

      That the is no more "rules of engagement" anymore. If your captured anything goes and I mean anything. Its not the fat cats kids going to war so what do they care but make it very clear to those signing up that they are on their own if captured. And I'm sure there are worse things than waterboarding.
      We sure have lowered the common denominator. What a civilized country we've become. Barf.
      I want to see any politician supporting this asked point blank "Is this ok to do to our soldiers" and maybe throw in if its ok to do to your family.

      Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore

      by Horsehead on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 09:03:52 AM PST

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    •  I kinda think you need to know the tradeoff (0+ / 0-)

      We do a lot of things in the world that are morally/ethically/legally dubious, and we really cannot exist in the world without doing some of those. I don't happen to think we should ever be waterboarding anybody, but I don't think it's wrong to examine evidence that it's been highly effective and saved dozens or hundreds or thousands of lives, if such evidence exists (this case seems to lack any that can be verified). The moral decision not to do it really should be informed by it's repercussions.

      •  The debate on terrorism has assumed we had (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chimpwatch, pasajero

        the high ground; therefore, the terrorists who beheaded Daniel Pearl were seen as bestial. As we now hear these arguments that the means are sufficient justification, how far are we from beheading a family if we thought it would make a captive relinquish information that could save thousands of lives (Hannity/Rush/Savage's argument)

        •  There's certainly a slippery slope... (0+ / 0-)

          ... and I think we should try to err on the side of being "too moral" rather than "too effective". But I still want to be able to weigh the benefits vs. the cost.

          •  Since most consequences are unintended (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wonmug, Jeffersonian Democrat

            it is impossible to weigh the costs in very meaningful ways. For example, Kissenger set the tone for diplomacy with his "real world" approach to problems which led to the Paris Peace Accords which doomed S VN (albeit maybe not a bad thing in the long run). Bin Laden is our own creation from arming the mujadeen to fight the Soviets.  We were successful in blunting the Soviet threat in the region but, in hindsight, the USSR was already on its last legs and maybe didn't need the additional push. Maybe letting it collapse of its own weight would have saved us Bin Laden and the current mess.
            No way to prove it but fascinating to consider.  

      •  No, it shouldn't ever be done. (0+ / 0-)

        Under what circumstances would you torture a child in the presence of her mother in order to extract information from the mother that might save lives? If you would ever do such a thing, under any circumstances, you are a monster, plain and simple. Some things are simply never done, and torture is one of them.  

        "Men use thought only to justify their wrongdoing, and employ speech only to conceal their thoughts." Voltaire

        by chimpwatch on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 11:34:35 PM PST

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    •  Yes, or if you really believe that you just (0+ / 0-)

      HAVE to do it, then be willing to face justice and the jury.
      Don't be a fckn coward about it.

      "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

      by Unduna on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 09:55:31 AM PST

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    •  i do wish (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chimpwatch

      someone wd come up with an answer to the tired old hollywood scenario that goes 'a tairist knows of a plot to kill thousands of amaircans'.  it's an absurd position, and reveals how many of those in the white house are caught up in the sadomasochistic imaginings of writers like libby.  this administration is composed of dreamweavers; not one of them has experience outside the halls of washington, so there's nobody to say You're enjoying creating nightmares.  there were some sane people in the beginning.  but they left ere long, alas...

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