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  •  No, Bob... (11+ / 0-)

    I changed just before I wrote my first Hillary diary. I found out that Hillary is NOT some "bogey monster" that I thought she was, and I realized that she was just leader we need to make change happen.

    Get to know The Hillary I Know... And come see me at The Liberal OC! :-)

    by atdnext on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 04:08:21 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I find it ironic that Hillary touts herself as (0+ / 0-)

      ... a "change agent" while she talks about 35 years of experience in D.C. and has Bill talking about the good old says back in the `90s.

      It's like a script for "Back to the Future IV." Or some sort of "turn-back-the-clock" strategy.

      Look, the `90s were great, but I'd rather look ahead.

      As I've noted, Clinton's campaign is reminiscent of the typical Republican campaign that always harkens back to the 1950s when white males were in charge.

      •  We're talking about change (7+ / 0-)

        from the Bush way, which will be very important.  Restoring competence in government, for example.  And sometimes leadership requires trying one thing and then realizing it won't work.  On Free Trade for example, a lot of very smart people thought it would be good for everyone.  Hillary has realized that it isn't working and is putting out reasonable suggestions for change, fair trade not free trade.  And while we are at it, what meaningful change is Obama really offering?

        The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

        by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 04:23:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Precisely! (6+ / 0-)

          Hillary is the change agent who can deliver. She's been tried by fire over the last 35 years, and she's only come out stronger and better than ever. She's been on the front line in the battles for universal health care, for giving our kids a great education, for giving our veterans the respect they deserve, and so much more. I cam to realize that Hillary is not just everything that we want, but someone who can really deliver the change we so need. :-)

          Get to know The Hillary I Know... And come see me at The Liberal OC! :-)

          by atdnext on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 04:26:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  "Change agent" (0+ / 0-)

            And you write this in reaction to what mike just wrote? That Hillary is now for "fair trade" over "free trade?"

            She is arguing against the very policy she supported and promoted!

            Hillary's campaign slogan should be, "Can I get a do-over on that?"

            •  No, Bob, you're missing the point... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ghost2, phoenixdreamz, SaneSoutherner

              Hillary obviously learned from ealier mistakes, and she's wiser now than Bill and Hillary were in 1993. No one's perfect, and everyone makes mistakes. What sets Hillary apart is that she's learned from them, and she knows what needs to be done and how to do it NOW.

              Get to know The Hillary I Know... And come see me at The Liberal OC! :-)

              by atdnext on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 04:43:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh, please... (0+ / 0-)

                What sets Hillary apart is that she's learned from them (her mistakes), and she knows what needs to be done and how to do it NOW.

                Case in point:

                • AUMF vote (which she refuses to apologize for)
                • Kyl-Lieberman (that had her siding with Lieberman and Cheney)

                I guess she doesn't learn from her mistakes every time. Just some mistakes. And especially not about the ones that pertain to war and putting our fellow citizens' lives in harm's way.

                •  Bob, do you know what's coming next? (3+ / 0-)

                  Well, here 'ya go... Wait for it...

                  PFTTTTTTTTTTT!!

                  Go write your own candidate diary. Thanks. :-)

                  Get to know The Hillary I Know... And come see me at The Liberal OC! :-)

                  by atdnext on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 04:59:38 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  and on KL there (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  atdnext, SaneSoutherner

                  were plenty of other Senators like Durbin and Levin supporting it.  Wes Clark himself says her opponents are misrepresenting the sctual content of Kyl Lieberman and I agree.  On the AUMF, the point was to get the inspectors into Iraq.  If we had not used the threat of force, we never would have gotten the inspectors in.  Bush broke his promise to play this one straight.  I feel that a lot of people on the left don't understand that the threat of force is often an essential tool.  One has to know how to use the threat as a way to avoid actual confrontation.  Using the threat of force to head off problems is one of the most important parts of police work, and diplomacy often works much the same way.

                  The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                  by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 05:09:18 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I don't care who else voted for it! (0+ / 0-)

                    They're all idiots for backing that piece of crap.

                    And spare me the Wes Clark talk. Number one, he is a long-time Clinton sycophant. Number two, remember when he had some credibility on Iran? He had to spin so hard to try and cover Hillary's ass on K-L that he screwed himself into the Arkansas dirt.

                    •  And we don't care to talk about it... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      SaneSoutherner

                      When Obama didn't even bother to vote. Hillary at least worked on the Armed Services Cmte. to weaken K-L, and she then cosponsored Jim Webb's bill to prevent Iran War...

                      http://www.dailykos.com/...

                      Get to know The Hillary I Know... And come see me at The Liberal OC! :-)

                      by atdnext on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 05:21:10 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Clinton is the ONLY Dem presidential candidate to (0+ / 0-)

                        ... vote FOR K-L.

                        The only one. She stands alone.

                        And, of course, in true Clinton triangulation fashion, she signed onto Webb's bill which was going nowhere and everyone knew it.

                        How embarrassing.

                    •  Screwed himself (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      SaneSoutherner

                      into the Arkansas dirt?  That's a little over the top isn't it?  So you're saying that Kyl Lieberman did authorize Bush to go to war?  Care to prove that?  And that Hillary co-sponsoring the Webb amendment to be sure Bush has to get authorization from congress before going to war with Iran counts for nothing?  

                      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                      by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 05:36:14 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Hillary signed onto the Webb amendment AFTER (0+ / 0-)

                        ... Kyl-Lieberman in classic Clinton triangulation fashion.

                        It's not about "authorizing to go to war." What it does is damage her in a general election should she be the nominee and should Cheney decide to bomb the IRG under the pretense of the IRG being part of attacks on Americans in Iraq.

                        She will be mute.

                        •  You've got it wrong. (0+ / 0-)

                          Hillary has been saying no war with Iran without specific congressional authorization since at least February.  Check the date here.  And what dirt will you say Madeleine Albright is screwing herself into?

                          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                          by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 05:55:07 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  And when did Webb introduce his amendment? (0+ / 0-)

                            And when did Clinton sign onto it?

                          •  Yes, that amendment (0+ / 0-)

                            came afterwards.  But you're the one who said she signed onto it just to make up for the KL vote.  You have to give her credit for at least giving lip service, and I think it was more than that, to the idea that an explicit congressional approval was needed months before the Webb amendment.  If you thought that the Iranians were a problem in Lebanon and Iraq and in other places and if you thought that labeling the IRG as a terrorist organization would help bring pressure on them to lessen their interference in those places,  then the KL vote could be the right thing to do and mean more than just about Iraq.  And, although you pooh poohed the statement about other smart and usually trustworthy Senators voting for KL, I think their view is a legitimate one to hold and that you are being overly cynical.  You seem intent, and occasionally irrationally so, on maintaining your view that Hillary is a warmongering corporate sellout who polltests every move.  No explanation, no matter how sensible, deters you from always going back to that cynicism.

                            The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                            by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 08:29:49 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

        •  Really? Now she's for "fair trade?" (0+ / 0-)

          This is precisely what I mean. She was an advocate for the policy she now claims she will change.

          She's  chasing her own tail.

          Who cares about Obama?

          His best asset is that he's not a Clinton.

          •  People change their minds (4+ / 0-)

            over time.  Do you even know what her voting record is on this issue?  Or do you just think you know?

            The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

            by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 04:39:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Did she back NAFTA wholeheartedly... (0+ / 0-)

              ... when others warned of the dangers?

              •  that was 15 years ago. (0+ / 0-)

                Is there anything big you have changed your mind on since then?

                The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 05:11:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  How come she hasn't cahnged her mind on her Iraq (0+ / 0-)

                  ... vote?

                  It's not just a question of experience, it's a question of judgment.

                  •  I explained that in another (0+ / 0-)

                    response to you in this diary.  The threat of force got the weapons inspectors into Iraq.  Without it we wouldn't have gotten them in.  She didn't intend for Bush to go to war before the weapons inspectors were done.  That one was his fault not hers.  And it's good for presidents, in general, to be given the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves untrustworthy.

                    The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                    by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 05:27:26 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Baloney. (0+ / 0-)

                      She supported this war until public opinion reached 60% against.

                      Sure, she criticized the administration's execution of the war but she repeatedly called the war necessary.

                      Again, in typical Clinton fashion, she only changed her tune when polls turned decidedly against the war.

                      Like I said, it's a question of judgment.

                      •  Ok that's one interpretation (0+ / 0-)

                        of her actions.  Is it possible there is another interpretation that is less cynical and more true? hmmmmm.....

                        The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                        by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 06:07:01 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  The other interpretation is that she changed (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          chumley

                          ... positions when the polls reached 65% against, not 60% against.

                          •  Guess again. (0+ / 0-)

                            As you said, she has never apologized for the Iraq vote.  Could that possibly be because she thought it was right to use the threat of force to get inspectors in and that's why she refuses to apologize even though that would be popular to do?  Could it be possible that she doesn't poll test every decision?  But that wouldn't fit with your convenient stereotype would it?

                            The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                            by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 06:35:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Stereotype? (0+ / 0-)

                            She is part and parcel of the DLC, the very bunch of idiots (Lieberman, Bayh, Al From, fools like Peter Beinart, etc.) who cheerleaded this war and thought it was good policy to show how tough Democrats are.

                            They were wrong, incredibly so. And they spent the early years of this debacle bad-mouthing, smearing and slamming anyone to their left in the party who clearly saw through the neocon lies and said so.

                            Hillary Clinton is just what we don't need, post-Bush: the Democratic brand of neocon.

                          •  Again, that's one (0+ / 0-)

                            way of looking at it.

                            The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                            by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 07:56:57 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Bob doesn't want replies, mike (0+ / 0-)

                      He's heard all this before.  Bob cannot resist coming into every single Hillary diary there is.  He rarely misses one. He is obsessed. He has become a standing joke.

                      1607038977_e372f91de8_o

                      Hillary Clinton 2008 - Less sizzle, more steak.

                      by SaneSoutherner on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 05:50:22 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  And as for "change from the Bush way"... (0+ / 0-)

          ... success in that arena would not be confined to Clinton. Any of the Dem candidates, including Mike Gravel, would give us that.

          Come on...

      •  You are subtle, Bob, (8+ / 0-)

        and find irony everywhere.

        Hillary Clinton: America's First Woman President!

        by DCDemocrat on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 04:26:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Here's irony for you... (0+ / 0-)

          As mikepridmore points out, above, NOW she's for "fair trade," not "free trade."

          So, in effect, she's arguing against the very policy she helped promote.

          I guess you can consider that to be "change" if you consider undoing the dame your earlier policy caused "change."

      •  doesn't 35 years of experience mean... (0+ / 0-)

        that she considers things she did when she was 25 as substantial experience for the presidency?

        Yet, if I understand her reasoning correctly, Obama's experiences at the same age - working with folks who lost their jobs in South Chicago - isn't considered valid experience.

        Could someone explain that to me?

      •  Since When Are Experience and Change (3+ / 0-)

        mutually exclusive?

        That tired old Republican meme is so Newt Gingrich era.

        Eisenhower certainly ran a more lively campaign than dead man walking Adlai Stevenson, if that's what you mean.  Hard to beat "I Like Ike!"  Similarly hard to beat "Give 'em Hill!"  

        They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

        by Limelite on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 04:52:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  One can have experience (0+ / 0-)

        and experience can make you better, can help you improve, and still an experienced person can be a change agent, can look ahead and can be good.

        I am really having to laugh at the implied ageism from some here.  Who knew liberals could have such closed minds?

        Life long learners like Hillary and some others of us who have a lifetime of experience can indeed be change agents.  Experience is a good thing...it often opens one's mind to preconceptions held.  

        My experience tells me that comparing the Clinton campaign to the republican campaign for going back to the 1950s is off the mark.  In fact it's not even close.  It's another one of those: ooh let's compare the Clintons to the right wing....scare tactics.  But then scare tactics do work for right wing thinkers.

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