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  •  David, I don't know much about the Military or (1+ / 0-)
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    anotherdemocrat

    CIA. I am a scientist and when Regan was president he was habitually using the OMB and other political powers to thwart the work of good scientists. Whether it involved indoor air-pollution, or threatened and endangered animals, the political trumped the science (I believe there was an exaggeration of the strength of the Soviet military, as well as inappropriate accouting). We had a break during Clinton, but now it's back with a vengeance. I guess my question is how do we keep this issue from ever coming back? (I won't say that refering to yourself in the third person reminds me of Bob Dole).

    . There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS. Mahatma Gandhi

    by Sacramento Dem on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 03:15:47 PM PST

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    •  DB re science etc... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sacramento Dem

      As Americans (not just democrats or liberals) our number one goal -- after ejecting the kleptos and winning big enough to repudiate Culture War -- has to be a final and total repudiation of the hoary old Left-Right political axis.

      Think about it.  Can you define that damned thing? Even on a bet?  On your life?

      If you had ten educated people in a room, would you bet that even TWO of them would write down the same definition?  A model bequesthed to us by the French, 250 years ago.  Egad.

      The worst thing done by this abomination is to force lumping of political allies.  Self-identification as "a conservative" has made millions of Americans ignore the blatant fact that "conservatism" has lost most of its meaning!  This has allowed Karl Rove to keep all the old, Barry Goldwater types and libertarians inside his coalition, despite stabbing in the heart everything they used to believe in.

      The neocons and troglodytes would be sent packing into the Know Nothing wilderness, if we stopped accepting this reflex.  Goldwater loved science!  So do most libertarians!  We need to make them see that we'll be happy to negotiate with them about matters like nuclear power, tort reform, budget balancing and all that...

      ...if they will first help us to save the whole American Experiment!

      Things to repeat: "CITOKATE -- Criticism Is The Only Known Antidote to Error." "IAAMOAC -- I Am A Member of a Civilization"

      by David Brin on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 04:30:33 PM PST

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      •  So is getting rid of the (0+ / 0-)

        hoary old Left-Right political axis.

        Mean a different system of government ie a parlimentary democracy or is it more a change in how people think?

        . There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS. Mahatma Gandhi

        by Sacramento Dem on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 04:39:51 PM PST

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        •  Instead of left-right, let's have forward vs back (0+ / 0-)

          If you are for science, the Enlightenment, individual opportunity and all that, then embrace an uncertain future.  Liberals and libertarians -- similar in name and purpose -- can argue over HOW to get there.  But not over where we are going.

          Things to repeat: "CITOKATE -- Criticism Is The Only Known Antidote to Error." "IAAMOAC -- I Am A Member of a Civilization"

          by David Brin on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 04:47:33 PM PST

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          •  David -- what is your opinion of this -- (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            yoduuuh do or do not

            re: Liberals and libertarians -- similar in name and purpose  

            How does liberalism differ from libertarianism?

                 Libertarians believe in little or no government, with individuals possessing strong or even sovereign property rights, along with the freedom to trade property as they wish on the free market. By contrast, liberals promote extensive government support of the free market and the taxation of property. Yet these are not the only reasons why liberals object to libertarianism. First, anarchy has historically led to violence, survival of the fittest, and eventual concentrations of power. Second, there are no working examples of libertarianism in history, so the system remains untested in modern times, and probably for good reason. Third, such a system would make landlords and business owners the dictators over their property, upon which tenants must live and workers must labor. Fourth, the voluntary contracts that would supposedly protect tenants and workers presupposes that there is no such thing as market failure or contract failure, in face of widespread evidence that there is.

            and BTW -- i, like sfbob, just realized who you are!! you wrote my FAVORITE sci-fi novel, Earth!!  ;-)

            •  DB answers (0+ / 0-)

              The definition of libertarianism above fits what the current generation of romantics running the movement believe it should stand for.

              Their paramount priority?  Hate government.  Hate bureaucrats.  Hate FDR.  Consider the people to be fools for having supported any of that... even though the essence of libertarianism is based upon the unusual (and enlightenment) notion that people can be smart.

              Their second and lesser priority?  Augment freedom.  The power of individuals to create, cooperate, compete and thrive.

              Their silliness?  Conflating these two priorities. as if they were identical.

              But dig it.  As Adam Smith would tell them (if they ever read books) 99% of free markets and free societies were NOT destroyed by government bureaucrats.  They were destroyed by the richest aristocrats in any given society, who conspired to become feudal lords and NOT have to compete anymore.

              Libertarianism has great potential.  Vast.  But it is currently led by very bright morons, who know no history, nothing about human nature, or what it takes to set men and women free.

              The enlightenment that has already (partly) set THEM free.

              For more see:
              http://www.davidbrin.com/...

              Oh, liberals have silliness too.  Like believing that their movement has anything at all to do with the "left".  

              Things to repeat: "CITOKATE -- Criticism Is The Only Known Antidote to Error." "IAAMOAC -- I Am A Member of a Civilization"

              by David Brin on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 10:06:07 PM PST

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