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View Diary: Hillary a Crucial Advisor, Even During Lewinsky Scandal (194 comments)

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  •  I actually really enjoyed this NY Times piece. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mperloe, Luam, mcfly, KayCeSF, Quicklund

    I think it's very important to point out that Hillary was not an "advisor," as you inaccurately titled your diary, but she was a very politically knowledgeable woman who happened to be married to the President.

    Hillary is not the first sharp-as-a-tack First Lady to boost our image abroad. Anyone remember Jackie Kennedy? She spoke about seven languages proficiently, and was extremely valuable to JFK in smoothing over ruffled feathers in a tense early Cold War period.

    Lets not mince words here. An advisor is a staff member, typically on the payroll. Hillary lived in the White House, but didn't run it. Just because staffers were intimidated by her knowledge and she had influence over the man she married does not give her experience as a foreign policy aid or president through "osmosis," as the NY Times piece so eloquently put.

    www.opedna.com
    "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

    by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:12:40 PM PST

    •  What gives more experiance, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AKTup, cpresley

      living in the White House for 8 years or living in Indonesia as a child?

      I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

      by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:16:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Of course the former (0+ / 0-)

        But it's hard assessing that experience when the Clintons are so secretive about what counsel she offered.

        •  The simple fact is that (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quicklund, cpresley

          she does have more experiance though.

          I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

          by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:20:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  More Experience, Less Wisdom. (9+ / 0-)

            And, of course, Joe Biden and Bill Richardson have more foreign policy experience than Sen. Clinton.

            •  hmmmm (0+ / 0-)

              I wonder why my list is like it is in my sig line.

              I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

              by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:25:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Wisdom, like beauty, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SaneSoutherner

              is often in the eye of the beholder.  

              The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

              by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:31:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Or in the eyes of a dead US soldier in Iraq. nt (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                GN1927, jack rance

                .

                •  Or in the eyes (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DaleA, SaneSoutherner

                  of any of 1.5 million Albanian Kosovars that were saved by the intervention she helped make possible.

                  The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                  by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:53:27 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And exactly how did she help (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mperloe

                    make it possible Mike?

                    By reminding her husband that he was the president?

                    What exactly did she do/say/advise/cajole that saved those lives.

                    Funny. Less than 4 years ago it was General Clark and Bill Clinton who were given the credit for the saving of those lives. Don't recall anyone (including the General or Bill Clinton) mentioning any key role that Mrs. Clinton played in that intervention back then.

                    Do you?

                    Amazing how now, in 2007 during a campaign she is getting credit for convincing Bill to do something.

                    Just sayin'.

                    "Mankind must remember that peace is not God's gift to his creatures. It is our gift to each other." Elie Wiesel

                    by witchamakallit on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:14:54 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I didn't know about (0+ / 0-)

                      her role in that until I saw it in the NYT piece and recognized the context.  Are you saying she should not have stepped in and convinced Bill to side with ALbright, Holbrooke and Clark?  I'm not sure I understand your point.

                      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                      by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:35:08 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  And is your point (0+ / 0-)

                        that she was the final influence in the decision to go in?

                        That seems to be the case. And yet it is something we will never know. We can only consider the clues left along the way over the years since.

                        I'm just saying that until her run for president I don't recall anyone, including Bill Clinton or Wes Clark mentioning her supposed role in Kosovo.

                        The most Wes Clark has said (and this since her run) is that she was "there" for Kosovo. Cryptic at best.

                        Do I think she gave her opinion to her husband? Sure, spouses tend to do that. Do I believe her opinion is what clinched the decision? I've no reason to believe one way or the other.

                        Your assumption that she "stepped in and convinced," is just that--an assumption. One that seems to never have been assumed prior to this campaign.

                        Funny how that works, huh?
                        ;)

                        "Mankind must remember that peace is not God's gift to his creatures. It is our gift to each other." Elie Wiesel

                        by witchamakallit on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:57:05 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well I think (0+ / 0-)

                          it is obvious that her role was more than the NYT writer wants us to believe.  And yes, it seems like she was the one that finally convinced Bill, even though the final decision was his.  After I read this piece I looked and there seems to have been some discussion of this from the right wing nutjobs, pieces saying that Bill was a wuss and Hillary, the evil witch, had to tell him to buck up like a man.  So although it is new to me, others have known about it before but applied it differently. I guess you can make of it what you want.  It's a free country.

                          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                          by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:26:53 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Right wing nut jobs are A-1 sources (0+ / 0-)

                            for "facts".

                            At least when those "facts" help make the point for whichever candidate one happens to be backing.

                            And thank you, I will make of it what I want, as will you. Human nature never changes. We'll be doing that till the day of doom arrives--we maybe not "us" but I gurantee our descendents will be well engaged in, making of it what they will.
                            ;)

                            "Mankind must remember that peace is not God's gift to his creatures. It is our gift to each other." Elie Wiesel

                            by witchamakallit on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:56:46 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You are so right. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ms in la

                            By the way, here is where I found the mention, from an October 2000 attack piece when she was running for Senate.

                            Remember, it was she who really bullied her hapless husband into ordering the bombing of Yugoslavia: she called him up and argued that the Serbs were engaged in "genocide" on the scale of the Holocaust – and reportedly threatened him with some pretty dire but unspecified consequences if the air raid sirens weren't wailing over Belgrade and soon. What she clearly wants, most of all, is not to have to get on the horn with anybody but the Joint Chiefs of Staff – and then only long enough to give the order to attack.

                            The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

                            by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:11:21 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  Then why does Obama (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ms in la

                  keep funding the war?

                  I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                  by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:21:54 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Depends on how you evaluate "experience" -- (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mperloe

            Cheney and Rumsfeld were highly "experienced" - and how that is related to what you want a candidate to accomplish is they should win.

            If you like GOP public policy, vote for Clinton because that's what Bill delivered and Hillary gives every indication of being more GOP lite than Bill.

            What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

            by Marie on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:16:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Right because the three (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DaleA, SaneSoutherner

              of them have all fought for the same thngs. They even defended Nixon.

              Oh wait. She helped investigate Nixon.

              I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

              by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:25:23 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Are you really that literal and concrete? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                GirlZero

                I mentioned Cheney and Rumsfeld in relation to the word "experience" (as examples of when "experience means little) and not GOP which I specifically brought up in a separate paragraph.

                Odd that Mrs. Clinton has made no effort to impeach Mssrs. Bush and Cheney who have engaged in more extreme criminal activity than Mr. Nixon did.  She was only a staffer back in the Watergate days; so, let's not give her credit for the investigation.  But now she has power and does nothing.    

                What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

                by Marie on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:18:36 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  My feeling on impeachment is that (0+ / 0-)

                  it would be a waste of time and a distraction that would go nowhere. I'd like to see more investigations but impeachment is a no go for me.

                  As far as experiance goes, I took your comparrison litterally because in truth Cheney and Rumsfeld did exactly what they set out to do. It wasnt that they were incapable of governing well, it was that they didn't want to. I don't think Clinton would be the same in any sense of the word.

                  I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                  by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:30:13 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Odd rationalizations there, Bud. (0+ / 0-)

                    On the evening of the OJ chase, I pointed out to friends that it would be impossible to impanel a jury of his peers in LA that would convict him.  That conclusion, however, was not a reason not to arrest and try him.  Crimes must be investigated, indictments (impeachment)issued if supported by the facts.  Facts not opinions.  

                    If Cheney/Rumsfeld accomplished their goals, wouldn't they also state that they governed well?

                    What will Clinton do?  More goodies for the insurance, energy, telecom, and financial services industries like they received in the '90s?  I'm sorry but anyone stupid enough to vote for the IWR and not smart enough to get a clue years later and vote for Kyl-Lieberman is too stupid to be POTUS.

                    What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

                    by Marie on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:45:08 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Huh (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Adam B, GirlZero

        Barack's life experience did not end when he left Indonesia.

        "In Japan, American occupation forces quickly became 50,000 friends. In Iraq, they would quickly become 50,000 terrorist targets. " James Webb, Sep 02

        by ParaHammer on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:18:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong question. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mperloe, Marie, Luam, bumblebums, KayCeSF

        What gives more real world, real life experience, growing up in a sheltered, comfortable middle class community in Illinois, and then living well as First Lady of Arkansas and then the U.S. for decades? Or growing up in several diverse communities, from Hawaii to Indonesia, without a father, studying your ass off and becoming the first black editor of the Harvard Law Review, giving back as a community advisor and professor, and serving in the State Legislature and then Congress?

        www.opedna.com
        "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

        by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:21:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's pretty lame. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DaleA, ms in la, cpresley, SaneSoutherner

          What gives more real world, real life experience, growing up in a sheltered, comfortable middle class community in Illinois, and then living well as First Lady of Arkansas and then the U.S. for decades?

          I had hope for you last week. It was misplaced.

          I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

          by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:24:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm confused. (0+ / 0-)

            You had hope for me last week?

            www.opedna.com
            "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

            by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:26:05 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You were more fair minded (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Trix

              and less likely to post comments that were lame like that.

              I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

              by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:27:35 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Can you elaborate on "lame"? I don't know (0+ / 0-)

                how to respond to that kind of vague criticism.

                www.opedna.com
                "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

                by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:28:27 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Simple. (5+ / 0-)

                  If someone ever describes your life that way they will rightfully be labeled assholes. You act as if she's just a little wifey who has done nothing in her life.

                  I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                  by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:29:58 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not "acting" any way, I'm illustrating (0+ / 0-)

                    that when Hillary calls Obama's experience into question, she's being an absolute hypocrite.

                    www.opedna.com
                    "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

                    by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:35:36 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Agreed. (0+ / 0-)

                      Now get back to the kitchen where you belong. Leave the important stuff to the men folk.

                      I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                      by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:12:42 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Thank you. (0+ / 0-)

                        You've just illustrated my point about how women who don't support Hillary are chastised for their decision.

                        For the record, I never said any woman working for/beside/with their husbands wasn't playing a critical role. My mother helped my father run a business for years. My point, which Mike S. has painstakingly reconstrued to distract from weaknesses in his own argument, was that Hillary was not an "advisor." That her role was over-exaggerated. And that Barack Obama got just as much experience out in the real world as a community activist and professor that Hillary did in the White House.

                        But for your own amusement, and by your own admission, simply to get a rise out of me, you have gone on some sort of crusade to take the piss out of me and call my feminism into question. And you were an original here on Kos? Is this what this public forum was designed to do? Personally attack people who don't support your candidate? Anyone who questions your candidate is anti-feminism or lame?

                        Personally, I don't care if you liked me last week and now that I've learned about some unsavory tactics on Hillary's part, you don't like me. And I don't care what you think about my views on women. My mom worked tirelessly to put me through school. She teaches children with learning disabilities, she campaigned for Bobby Kennedy, and while she loved Hillary in the 1990s, she's not voting for her this primary season.

                        All kinds of ugliness comes out around the caucuses. It's fantastic to live in a democracy where this kind of public discourse is possible. But it's downright hurtful and disappointing to read the things that you wrote about me personally simply because I questioned a presidential candidate, and quite clearly not all women in general.

                        www.opedna.com
                        "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

                        by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:37:37 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You poor thing. (0+ / 0-)

                          You dug your own grave with that comment. Don't blame me.

                          I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                          by Mike S on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 12:29:27 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  BTW (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      SaneSoutherner

                      If you are a "girl" then you only hurt yourself with that sort of comment. My mother thanks you for helping to shove women's lib issues backward so that your chosen candidate can score a few more points. In your world she was just a wifey for 23 years.

                      I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                      by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:17:49 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I helped my husband start his own business. (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Mike S, AKTup, DaleA

                        I worked my ass off, and knew the ropes inside out. He never made a move without consulting me.   But since my name wasn't the one on the letterhead, and I "lived well", I guess I only lived off of my husband's largesse, and my contribution counted for nothing.

                        What is sad is that the people saying these things do not even comprehend how wrong it is.   Kudos to your mom, BTW.

                        Hillary Clinton 2008 - Less sizzle, more steak.

                        by SaneSoutherner on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:26:48 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  SaneSoutherner (0+ / 0-)

                          I hope you understand that my comments about Hillary Clinton had nothing to do with the incredible achievements women make in business, with or without their husbands by their sides. I sincerely apologize if my words offended you or any other women on Kos. Everything I said was about Hillary Clinton, not anybody else, in heated debate with Mike S. Please accept my apology if you were offended, it was most certainly not my intention in the slightest. Same to anyone else who might have been.

                          www.opedna.com
                          "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

                          by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:45:07 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                •  Don't worry (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  GirlZero

                  Mike appointed himself arbiter of the important "You'd defend it if your candidate did it" whinge. He spends most of his time here crying and telling people how much better he is at being objective than anyone else.

                  •  I like the way she (0+ / 0-)

                    recced this comment.

                    He spends most of his time here crying and telling people how much better he is at being objective than anyone else.

                    Am I crying or asking for fairness? I know that children like you don't care about fairness, you want your candidate to win regardless, but you really show that you are just the flip side of the GOP's coin.

                    I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                    by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:11:46 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  BTW little one. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SaneSoutherner

                    Do yopu want to know who appointed me Arbiter? It was actually Markos back in 03 before we had scoop and at least 3 years before you graced these pages.

                    I'm guessing it was also about the time that you got your learners permit.

                    I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                    by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:41:34 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  2003 was a few months before John Kerry hired me (0+ / 0-)

                      You can criticize my viewpoints, diaries, perspectives, the candidate I support, whatever. But don't call me a child. I've worked my ass off for Democrats since I was 16 and I have just as much right to be here on Kos as you do.

                      www.opedna.com
                      "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

                      by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:21:23 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

          •  And your initial question... (0+ / 0-)

            What gives more experiance,living in the White House for 8 years or living in Indonesia as a child?

            By your own definition, that was pretty "lame" in itself. To suppose that all of his experience came while he was a pre-teen? Pretty nervy.

            www.opedna.com
            "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

            by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:41:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sure was. (0+ / 0-)

              It was designed to get these responses. It did it's job by exposing the real you.

              I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

              by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 03:28:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So you plant comments to get a rise out of (0+ / 0-)

                people?

                Very mature for someone who has spent the past few comments calling people childish.

                www.opedna.com
                "I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."-Bush

                by GirlZero on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:22:19 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  heh (0+ / 0-)

                  Last week you were this fresh faced girl who believed that we had this phenominal field that made it hard to pick.

                  This week? Your true colors come out. And of course my exposing them is the problem, not that you have them.

                  I don't have a candidate yet but if forced to choose today it would go Dodd, Richardson, Obama, Biden or Edwards, Clinton, then a write in for Mike S.

                  by Mike S on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 06:29:10 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Perspective (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mperloe, GirlZero

        I have also lived overseas for a number of years, it granted me a perspective that I bring to politics and my opinions on foreign policy.  I value that perspective and am pleased that Obama has a similar one.

        My experience is more recent and when I was older, but there is very little that can match the actually knowing what life is like for citizens of a foreign nation.  Barack has friends from other countries that were not his friend because they were influential and powerful, but because he knows them and they lived in common circumstances.  It creates an ability to understand how those overseas perceive America and helps one to comprehend the opinions of those who would be our allies.

        You cannot really compare those experiences, but they are both valuable.

        My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
        Philly for Obama

        by Luam on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:48:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Both of my stepchildren lived overseas (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Luam

          when very young, in Japan and Italy.  While a valuable experience, that perhaps makes them a little less likely to see things from a solely parochial perspective, I can't see that it has made either of them that versed in world affairs.

          I love them. They are great kids (well, 17 and 20 now), and better than most.  But no great wisdom was bestowed on them for having lived overseas for 5 years.

          Hillary Clinton 2008 - Less sizzle, more steak.

          by SaneSoutherner on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 04:10:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Experience at what? (0+ / 0-)
    •  An advisor (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AKTup, SaneSoutherner

      is anyone who regularly gives advice.  

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Dec 26, 2007 at 02:20:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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